Help with big batches of enriched dough (cinnamon rolls),
Hi,
I recently started selling cinnamon rolls and other pastries. I've scaled up my recipe and with that, there have been some unforeseen challenges. If I do anything beyond a double batch of my cinnamon roll dough, the dough will NOT relax when it comes time to roll it out. It's not let it warm up or hang out type of situation-- its a crazy springy dough.
I retard over night in Cambros, but with a triple batch it cools down slower and I find it just keeps rising and rising and I need to keep punching the dough down. To combat this, I use cold ingredients (after a tangzhong-- so there's still some warmth) and go straight into the fridge after mixing. However, I still get the springy dough.
Yesterday, I mixed, bulked in the fridge until just double, then weighed and seperated out into a single and a double to finish overnight. This seemed to help a little but it was still much springier than when mixing a single batch. Its not in the kneading because i keep pulling back how much Im kneading (in a Kitchenaid) to try and alleviate some of the issue.
I feel like maybe there is some gap in my knowledge of large batch baking? Help!
Sounds like you need to recalibrate or tune the recipe for a larger batch size.
Tuning can be needed if the original recipe is not precisely correct, and scaling up or down highlights recipe deficiencies.
Also don't rule out user error when scaling up. Be extra precise until you get desirable and repeatable results from the larger batch.
And, as you noted, temperature behavior is different with large batch size. Two tuning items you can try are less leavening or reduced fermentation and proofing time.
ninar, I agree with semolina_man's advice on tuning your recipe.
I would also advise you to refrigerate everything prior to mixing. I mean everything from the recipe itself (flour, butter etc.) and also the mixing bowl and dough hook. Also use cold water. You don't mention the kind of mixer you use, but with my mixer I start with everything at around 40° F from the fridge and by the time I have added the butter in stages (15 to 20 minutes) the heat from the mixing gives me a dough temperature of 65° F to 68° F. The mixing process, no matter what type of mixer you use will generate lots of heat.
Once mixed, I put it in the freezer for a couple of hours to drop the heat. I got that from Ciril Hitz's book "Baking Artisan Bread" and his Brioche recipe. After a couple of hours I return the dough to the fridge for a bulk fermentation.
Dave
Thanks, this is helpful. Today I noticed that it may have something to do with how I am dividing the dough. If I don't cut the precise weight and add dough randomly i'm seeing that it may have to do with cross crossing the pieces-- if the glutenous strands (for lack of knowing the correct term) are directional and I'm adding pieces without considering this I think it's causing the dough to spring back more. Is this a thing?? I've baked some bread in my life-- but never considered this isssue.
ninar, I believe the gluten strands are directional, or at least seem to be when stretching the dough, so I can understand what you are getting at. But in my experience from commercial bakery to home baking I have never seen anyone be concerned about cutting pieces of dough when scaling and adding or subtracting to the larger dough piece.
The gluten needs to relax for the spring to dissipate, and machine mixing causes much quicker gluten development than hand mixing. Also, to a point, most machines mix more efficiently with larger batches of dough. Often you will see a small batch in a planetary mixer just spinning around the dough hook, while you can see a larger batch actually stretching and folding the dough, developing the gluten strands much more efficiently.
Dave
Hi Dave,
Thanks for your response. I've def never experienced any issues with adding or subtracting dough pieces before either-- it seems bananas to me-but, Im absolutely positive it's not from over developing the dough in the mixer. I've been kneading it less and less to the point where I knew the dough wasn't close to where it should be and it both tore and sprung back! So what does that mean? The gluten was underdeveloped, but the dough sheet still balled up at the edges (you know what i mean? it wouldn't stay put...there must be some other cause.
ninar, I'm at a loss to explain this other than by looking at the symptoms. gluten tearing is a sign of it breaking down or being overdeveloped, but why? I guess that's what we both want to know.
Lets look to the basics. Is there anything in your formula that has changed other than size? Is this a yeasted dough or sourdough? Is your butter salted now where you were using unsalted before?
Dave
EDIT: ninar, sorry but I have to sign off for the evening. I'll check for any update tomorrow.
So, I haven't changed anything from the original recipe-- a yeasted cinnamon roll dough (not brioche). It's got a higher hydration than most cinnamon roll recipes and I use the tangzhong method with it. I regard over night in the fridge then roll out in the morning and do a second proof.
Ive never been overly concerned with the proof when doing the bulk with yeasted doughs-- and once I started doubling and tripling the recipe it was hard to control and it kept rising and rising. I've taken steps to alleviate this, but it still goes much farther than doubling.
my assumption was that this extended rising was producing too much gluten some how-- but that's def not the issue, maybe it does something else to the dough but it's not too much gluten?
This week i kneaded a triple batch for 5 mins less than the other and it was so underdeveloped-- this was the one that tore, so i believe that proves the testing was from a lack of gluten development.
Good morning, ninar.
I think the best thing for you to do at this point is to cut back on the yeast to retard the rise so that you can take the dough to a more developed stage as far as gluten goes.
Although the percentages of flour water and salt are usually a constant when scaling a formula up or down the yeast is often not linear. The problem is to find the proper amount of reduction. Since you are retarding the dough and still getting a rapid rise, I'd guess that you can reduce by 25% or maybe even closer to 50% with the amount of sugar in your dough. Sorry, but I don't have a definitive answer for that. I don't think anyone could offer more than a suggestion without working side by side with you.
Dave
thanks, I appreciate your input-- I'll reduce the yeast further and see if controlling the rise during bulk alleviates some of the problem
I’ve been watching this thread with interest as it’s a very perplexing problem. But only feel compelled to participate to say that you might consider giving more details as it seems like a lot of guessing is going on.
Please post the recipe, and clarify the changes you made before you observed the problems. I’m not sure that I understand completely.
Have you changed flour and/or yeast lately? What yeast are you using? In my mind it is better to use an osmotolerant yeast in this application but most recipes used larger amounts of IDY/ADY instead. Using those quantities of osmotolerant yeast could be a problem if substituted. The failure of the dough to relax sounds more like a handling issue than a recipe issue.
Many potential issues to consider but without more information…
I’ve made a lot of cinnamon rolls and sticky buns with great success. The only overnight recipe I’ve used was Alton Brown’s, which worked great as written. The only Tangzang recipe I’ve used was from America’s Test Kitchen and found it unnecessarily fussy for the results. You seem to have blended both concepts… a promising idea…