How do bakeries get a nice smooth crust, on the sides, with their wholegrain loaf pan breads? I get a lovely smooth top with my bakes but the sides are very rustic. Especially with wholegrain.
I've read your post here and elsewhere, so I know you're an experienced and talented baker. The issue is hard to picture.
After decades of baking nothing but hearth loaves on a baking stone, I made some pan loaves for a party. Now that's my wife's favorite and pan loaves are almost all I've made for the past three years.
Mostly I use Pullman pans, and all I've done differently is to resize the loaves. My loaves vary from 42% to 80% whole grain and vary between 72% to 76% hydration. I haven't experienced what you describe.
Pictures of a 50% Rye 50% Bread Flour, 72% hydration loaf, and a 42% Whole Wheat, 72% hydration loaf.
When I had a pullman loaf pan I used to get loaves like yours pictured (really lovely bakes).
I've now attached a photo of the types of loaves I get in a normal cheap bread pan that I currently have. Sorry about the photo from through the plastic bag but you can see what I mean. Admittedly there was some sticking to the pan, which exasperates the problem, but even when this doesn't happen I still get some gluten network showing look although not quite as bad as this.
I should also note that I coat the pan with coconut oil.
Abe, I currently use USA pans, which require only minimal oiling if any at all. But when I started using loaf pans I used the generic hardware store pans my wife used for quick breads. I only lightly coated them with canola oil. This makes me think that the coconut oil is in question, but it doesn't seem like it should be.
Do you use the solid, unrefined oil or the refined liquid. If it's the solid, could the coating be un-even? Or is there a degree of water in the solid that could be the cause?
I've seen so much bread baked in everything from cheap tin to glass pans that had no issues that it's hard for me to think it's the pan. Very sorry I can't come up with a great answer, but when you solve it, I'd really like to know the answer.
This pan used to be non stick and I can't recall having an issue back then. I've recently taken to oiling it with pure unrefined coconut oil and i've started to notice the problem.
Perhaps a bad pan which sticks coupled with an uneven coating of coconut oil has created this. I'll change tactics and report back if it's solved the issue.
The sides and bottom, however long it's kept in for, always come out "steamed" and soft. It needs to go back in when taken out of the pan for it to crust up. I need to do this with the bread upside down because the base is too soft.
There are a lot of people who want crustless bread. They use Pullman pans and even tin cans. When I was looking at the photos of bread cooked in cans--inside the can had no crust at all--I thought steam might be your culprit (talent for the obvious). That doesn't explain why your pan does this when others do not. Is it light-coloured and/or shiny?
That canned bread reminded me of Crosse & Blackwell's date & nut loaf.
Mine too. You know, the breads I have baked in pans lately have all been baked in either a USA or a Chefmade Pullman pan, both of which are what I would call a medium shade and shiny. All those loaves had crusts. They were crustier on top because of time in the oven without the lid. I don't mean they had full-on hearth-baked crustiness all around, but the sides made some sound when cut, and you felt it when you chewed a slice.
I would have thought that being baked mostly with a lid on, the loaves would have come out with soft outsides, but they didn't.
There might be one difference between these pans and Abe's. They are very sturdy, using thick sheet metal. Otherwise it must be the oil. Maybe the oil he started using is extra good at trapping moisture that would otherwise have escaped.
I think it's also about thermal mass. A lightweight pan has no reservoir of heat (thermal capacity) to transfer to the much-heavier dough inside. That's also why I pay more attention to pan temps than air temps in the oven.
I don't think heat capacity will have that effect when the dough and pan are loaded together cold. I would expect absorbance (to capture the radiant heat) and conductivity (to transfer it into the dough) to have a much larger impact. In fact, a high thermal mass would take longer to heat and make the bread bake more slowly.
These factors are all interdependent. Conduction (pan to dough) is very efficient. And yes, you can go to the other extreme (massive pan, like cast iron) and it would act as you say.
But there is a middle ground that optimizes all the factors.To some extent, you can overcome the lightweight pan's low thermal mass with higher temperatures.
For me, the best pan crusts come from higher-thermal-mass pans, cast aluminum pans being excellent. Medium-weight steel pans are pretty good, too.The USA pans tpassin mention are "alumunum-clad steel" to add more thermal mass than thin sheet aluminum has.
Abe said when he used a pullman pan he had no problem, so perhaps the quality of this pan is inferior (as Tom said). I have a 12" shiny aluminum pan that will not darken the sides or bottom for love or money.
All my breads baked in the Pullman turned out lovely. Looked professional. This pan has never really brought any joy. It was very cheap from a hardware store. Think i'll treat myself to a new Pullman.
You can try baking spray. If the issue is due to some minor sticking, I was amazed how well baking spray works against that. Loafs just jump out of the pan whatever pan I use.
Was trying what many "believe" to be a healthier option. But i'm going to try a spray oil to see if that helps. Even if I buy a pullman it would be good to find out why this happens.
AFAIK there is nothing at all unhealthy about cooking spray, it's just oil with an emulsifier... And you needs less of it than regular oil, since a thin layer works very well.
It would depend on the kind of oil. I don't want to get into a war about the "healthiness" of oils or any other food, but the amount of oil in the spray coating will be so small that it shouldn't be any problem as a practical matter.
Definitely try a baking spray. For both yeasted and quickbead it helped me a lot. But not just any spray off the grocery store shelf. Get a “professional “ pan release spray: Bak-Klene. I’ve been using their all-purpose but they have one specific to pan bread that I’ve not yet tried.
The sides where the loaf touches the pan, or the sides of the top?
..the loaf touches the pan. You can see the gluten network rather than it being smooth.
Abe, could post a picture of the issue?
I've read your post here and elsewhere, so I know you're an experienced and talented baker. The issue is hard to picture.
After decades of baking nothing but hearth loaves on a baking stone, I made some pan loaves for a party. Now that's my wife's favorite and pan loaves are almost all I've made for the past three years.
Mostly I use Pullman pans, and all I've done differently is to resize the loaves. My loaves vary from 42% to 80% whole grain and vary between 72% to 76% hydration. I haven't experienced what you describe.
Pictures of a 50% Rye 50% Bread Flour, 72% hydration loaf, and a 42% Whole Wheat, 72% hydration loaf.
Dave
When I had a pullman loaf pan I used to get loaves like yours pictured (really lovely bakes).
I've now attached a photo of the types of loaves I get in a normal cheap bread pan that I currently have. Sorry about the photo from through the plastic bag but you can see what I mean. Admittedly there was some sticking to the pan, which exasperates the problem, but even when this doesn't happen I still get some gluten network showing look although not quite as bad as this.
I should also note that I coat the pan with coconut oil.
Abe, I currently use USA pans, which require only minimal oiling if any at all. But when I started using loaf pans I used the generic hardware store pans my wife used for quick breads. I only lightly coated them with canola oil. This makes me think that the coconut oil is in question, but it doesn't seem like it should be.
Do you use the solid, unrefined oil or the refined liquid. If it's the solid, could the coating be un-even? Or is there a degree of water in the solid that could be the cause?
I've seen so much bread baked in everything from cheap tin to glass pans that had no issues that it's hard for me to think it's the pan. Very sorry I can't come up with a great answer, but when you solve it, I'd really like to know the answer.
Dave
This pan used to be non stick and I can't recall having an issue back then. I've recently taken to oiling it with pure unrefined coconut oil and i've started to notice the problem.
Perhaps a bad pan which sticks coupled with an uneven coating of coconut oil has created this. I'll change tactics and report back if it's solved the issue.
Abe, would you describe this bread (on the sides) as being crustless? Is the bottom the same?
The sides and bottom, however long it's kept in for, always come out "steamed" and soft. It needs to go back in when taken out of the pan for it to crust up. I need to do this with the bread upside down because the base is too soft.
There are a lot of people who want crustless bread. They use Pullman pans and even tin cans. When I was looking at the photos of bread cooked in cans--inside the can had no crust at all--I thought steam might be your culprit (talent for the obvious). That doesn't explain why your pan does this when others do not. Is it light-coloured and/or shiny?
That canned bread reminded me of Crosse & Blackwell's date & nut loaf.
Abe, if your pan is light instead of dark, that might make a difference.
TomP
Tom, I understand your thinking there, but my USA pans are all bright steel and my crust is browned.
Dave
Mine too. You know, the breads I have baked in pans lately have all been baked in either a USA or a Chefmade Pullman pan, both of which are what I would call a medium shade and shiny. All those loaves had crusts. They were crustier on top because of time in the oven without the lid. I don't mean they had full-on hearth-baked crustiness all around, but the sides made some sound when cut, and you felt it when you chewed a slice.
I would have thought that being baked mostly with a lid on, the loaves would have come out with soft outsides, but they didn't.
There might be one difference between these pans and Abe's. They are very sturdy, using thick sheet metal. Otherwise it must be the oil. Maybe the oil he started using is extra good at trapping moisture that would otherwise have escaped.
plus, the oil. A combo of the two. It is a very cheap pan from a hardware store. Think i'll go back to a Pullman which gives excellent results.
Thank you Tom.
I think it's also about thermal mass. A lightweight pan has no reservoir of heat (thermal capacity) to transfer to the much-heavier dough inside. That's also why I pay more attention to pan temps than air temps in the oven.
I don't think heat capacity will have that effect when the dough and pan are loaded together cold. I would expect absorbance (to capture the radiant heat) and conductivity (to transfer it into the dough) to have a much larger impact. In fact, a high thermal mass would take longer to heat and make the bread bake more slowly.
These factors are all interdependent. Conduction (pan to dough) is very efficient. And yes, you can go to the other extreme (massive pan, like cast iron) and it would act as you say.
But there is a middle ground that optimizes all the factors.To some extent, you can overcome the lightweight pan's low thermal mass with higher temperatures.
For me, the best pan crusts come from higher-thermal-mass pans, cast aluminum pans being excellent. Medium-weight steel pans are pretty good, too.The USA pans tpassin mention are "alumunum-clad steel" to add more thermal mass than thin sheet aluminum has.
Abe said when he used a pullman pan he had no problem, so perhaps the quality of this pan is inferior (as Tom said). I have a 12" shiny aluminum pan that will not darken the sides or bottom for love or money.
All my breads baked in the Pullman turned out lovely. Looked professional. This pan has never really brought any joy. It was very cheap from a hardware store. Think i'll treat myself to a new Pullman.
Abe, my advice would be to change one thing at a time, oil or pan, so you can better understand what the actual cause has been.
Dave
Even if I do eventually replace it with a pullman. I'm going to try Ilya's advice and try a spray oil.
Thank you, Dave.
You can try baking spray. If the issue is due to some minor sticking, I was amazed how well baking spray works against that. Loafs just jump out of the pan whatever pan I use.
Was trying what many "believe" to be a healthier option. But i'm going to try a spray oil to see if that helps. Even if I buy a pullman it would be good to find out why this happens.
AFAIK there is nothing at all unhealthy about cooking spray, it's just oil with an emulsifier... And you needs less of it than regular oil, since a thin layer works very well.
It would depend on the kind of oil. I don't want to get into a war about the "healthiness" of oils or any other food, but the amount of oil in the spray coating will be so small that it shouldn't be any problem as a practical matter.
I have had the spray burn in places in the pan, and it was hard to impossible to get the marks off.
What does the bread look like when you put it into the pan? Is it a tightly shaped log or is it an unshaped loose dough?
Definitely try a baking spray. For both yeasted and quickbead it helped me a lot. But not just any spray off the grocery store shelf. Get a “professional “ pan release spray: Bak-Klene. I’ve been using their all-purpose but they have one specific to pan bread that I’ve not yet tried.