Another Lievito Madre Thread
I converted a 100% hydration starter to a 45% lievito madre about a month ago following the advice of mwilson and others. I managed to produce one batch of the Giorilli pretty good panettone that passed all the tests along the way: starter tripled every 4 hours at 28 degrees celsius, primo impasto tripled after about 13 hours at 25 C, shaped panettoni rose in 6 hours at 28 C. Hurray!
About a week later, I tried to mix another batch. Due to not scaling up the LM early enough I had to do 4 x 4 hour refreshments to get the amount of LM I needed. The first 3 tripled as expected, then the last round just kind of gave up. The LM barely grew and had little to no smell. I fed it again, left it 19C overnight (only about 8 hours) then tried to go through 3 x 4 hour refreshments again and the same thing happened. The first just barely tripled in 4 hours (20g LM 1:1:.45), the second did as well (40gLM 1:1:.45), then the last (80g LM 1:1:.45) just sort of gave up, growing to just barely doubled in 4 hours.
My day to day maintenance has been at least one (usually 2) 4 hour refresh at 28 C in a cooler rigged up with a seed heating mat, a rack, and a thermostat; and then the remainder of the day at 66F in a wine cooler. I have vacillated between wet conservation and dry (never bound), and the 28 C refreshes are always dry. Bagnettos only before production cycles. Base feeds are 20g LM (1:1:.45) to conserve my Dallagiovanna panettone flour.
I'm thinking that I haven't given the LM long enough rest cycles, especially that last one. Perhaps it has become too lactic? No PH meter, but the smell went from faintly acidic to almost non-existent. I'm trying to get it back in shape by feeding at lower hydration and giving it a full 16 hours to develop submerged in water. I've read a bunch of other threads about rebalancing LM, but have not seen anybody else specifically mention weakness appearing only when the LM is scaled up.
Anybody got some tips? Looks like I'll have to find another use for my scaled out egg yolks, I think it will take a while to get the LM back to full health.
Thanks!
According to Montanari, lactic acid is odorless, so I'd agree with your assessment that the LM has gotten too lactic. The night rest is very important, so perhaps the additional warm refreshment when you needed to scale up threw it off.
I also have a DIY proofer with a seed mat, rack, and thermostat. I'd suggest keeping a separate thermometer in the proofer if you're not doing that. If I set my thermostat to 28 and check 4 hours later, the thermometer will read 30-31.
from the sound of it.... I think you are working with too small a piece of lievito madre, which makes the feeding and balancing more critical IMO. I would not attempt that; I always start with at least 100 g of LM, more often 130 to 140 g. I find it to be more stable and predictable.
Also you do not need to use your expensive panettone flour for LM maintenance, but you do need a high protein flour for best results. I use GM All Trumps with good results. You can use a good quality bread flour for the second impasto too, and often this produces better results (IF you have not damaged the gluten in the first impasto by over acidifying it)
So you have diluted the organisms in the LM by repeatedly feeding what sounds like an already-weakened starter.... I think you should take a larger piece and give it at least one 24-hour cycle to gain some initial strength
Cheers, Sue
I bet it is a good idea to up the size, so I'm going ahead and doing that today.
I suppose I could give King Arthur bread flour a shot for feeding, I have that around. I had been following mwilson's advice regarding the importance of ash level and what-not in the feeding flour.
Would you recommend 65 F/18 C for the 24 hour cycle? I just took the LM off of a wet 16 hour rest at that temperature and it seems a bit happier. Floated after about 3 hours, and it had larger air pockets inside than previously.
I would look for a cool room temp, like around 21C, to try a 24 hour rise. I think 18C is more to encourage LABs in an overnight cycle, at least IMO. Still it might also work at the cooler temp, if you are more comfortable with that. Mostly just keep observing how it responds.
The KA bread flour is very good quality, and at 12.7% protein it should work fairly well. Try it and see. if you have the higher protein one, Sir Lancelot (14.2%), that would be a little better. I used to worry that using a different flour for LM maintenance and panettone baking might cause a problem, but I have never seen that. If you're worried about that, you could include a small amount of your panettone flour in the refreshments.
For my second impasto, I often use KA Galahad (11.7%), which yields a softer and loftier final result than staying with panettone flour for the second.
Went for the 24 hour cycle at 20C (my house is cold) with a 1:1:.45 50g feed. Still using panettone flour, wanted to see some movement before I flip over. The LM did just about nothing over that time. A bit stronger yeasty aroma, but that's it.
Now going through a 4 hour refresh at 28C, planning to bump up to 100g after that if things look promising. I'm starting to think that I should just start from scratch with my 100% hydration starter.
If your regular starter is strong then yes I might try that. I also hope your warm refresh wakes up your LM somewhat. I know this can be frustrating, we have all been there.
While I'm still learning myself and not exactly the most qualified to give you advice on LM maintenance (as you can see by my post history lol), if you are at the point of starting over, I'll share my perspective. I'd also caution against starting over. I've done it many times and I inevitably wind up in the same position with no idea how to fix it. YMMV though, so give it a shot if you want.
In my experience, with my PMs at least, it is very easy for the starter to get too acidic and something as simple as a 4th warm refreshment in one day, followed by the shortened night's rest (less than 12 hrs) could've caused a shift.
When this happens, I focus on shifting back towards acetic. Correcting the acid balance will oftentimes correct the leavening issues as well. What I do in these cases, which has been working fairly well, is feeding 1:2 starter:flour at a low hydration, something like 40% - 43%, and submerging in 16-17C water for 24hrs. If I do that for 2 or 3 days, my LM usually perks up during the warm refreshments.
Your LM sounds too lactic to me so I'd be a little concerned with prolonged exposure to temps above 18C. I'd focus on low hydration, low temps 15-18C, and use the Piedmontese method, which is good for controlling acidity.