October 2, 2023 - 6:11pm
I'm newbie
Hello everyone,
I'm from Arizona. I came from a family of cooks. I started learning to cook as a teenager. My home kitchen was my first contact. My best dishes are stir-fries and soups. Now I'm interested in baking. I started experimenting with baguettes. I would like to learn more varieties of baked bread and gluten-free bread. I hope to learn from your experience.
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Vicky,
Welcome. Much expertise available here. Many explorers of all sorts of bread types. I can’t speak for the gluten free folks, but have earned a few scars learning about baguettes traditionales, ciabattas, focaccia, pizza and viennoiserie with much guidance from TFL postings, direct interactions and the archives (all hail Floyd who keeps this treasure chest alive). Dive in and don’t be shy about asking for assistance.
Phil
Thanks Phil,
where are you from? How long have you been making bread?
If you are really serious about learning baguettes, there is a rather large compendium on TFL of baguette baking journey of four individuals over several months in mid 2020 http://www.thefreshloaf.com/up/tfl-baguette-community-bake.pdf and begins with:
This is partial documentation of The Fresh Loaf’s Community Bake of baguettes. https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64622/community-bake-baguettes-alfanso
Organized by Dan, it is, as all Community Bakes (CBs) are, open to all who decide to participate.
The bake commenced in mid-June 2020, and although has slowed down considerably in terms of
participants, continues as all Community Bakes may also do. However, being that the baguette is
challenge all its own and the “secrets” of them is also a never ending challenge, this particular CB has
been in the forefront months longer than any of the dozen previous CBs.
My feeling is that if the collective knowledge that has been accumulated during this exercise were to
be synthesized and organized into a single document, it would provide the premier manual of
baguette baking for the home baker. Far more comprehensive than any documentation that we’ve
yet to encounter.
V
...the community bake was a great learning experience. I would also recommend @dmsnyder’s San Joaquin Sourdough Baguettes post for its detailed, clear instructions…and excellent results. I’m currently using a hybrid baguette recipe based on @dmsnyder munged with a French bakery recipe.
I mostly bake in my kitchen in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada (halfway between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe), though this month I’m baking in a borrowed house near Pt. Reyes National Seashore. I also occasionally bake in Cleveland where our grand babies currently live. Been doing pastries and viennoiserie for over 40 years but really got serious about bread after I retired in 2016.
P
Thanks everyone!
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"French" flour doesn't tell us much - there's more than one kind. The dough didn't have enough elasticity - it spread out sideways too much during or after proof - and the shaping method might not have been up to counteracting that. That doesn't speak to the crust, but could you say more than just "hard"? Is it like a rock, does it shatter when you bite through it, does it taste good even if hard, what would you like the crust to be like?
What was the hydration? If it was very high, it would be harder to get the shaped loaf to keep a good shape. OTOH, the crumb doesn't look like the hydration was out of line.
How long was the dough fermented and at what temperature? Much too long a fermentation could lead to a slack dough like this.
What was the baking temperature? To my eye the crust has a fairly light color, which seems at odds with it being "hard". How long did it bake?
IOW, we don't need to drown in details but the basics would be helpful.
Hello，I use T45 French flour. It spreads out to the sides when it wakes up, and has a somewhat flat shape. It doesn't break when I bite. The crust is a little hard. It's not hard inside. Bake at 410 degrees Fahrenheit. 30 minutes. The bread tastes good. I want the shell to be soft. So I can cut it easier with a knife. Let the bread rise for 5 hours.
I believe that T45 is a fairly soft (low-gluten) flour. That's consistent with the sideways spreading. It might also have something to do with the crust being "hard", but I'm less sure about that. For bread it would really be better to use a stronger flour, maybe T55.
If you must use T45 for some reason, then during shaping you should stretch the dough as much as possible, and also you can try showering it with a lot of flour as you work with it. But I've never worked with T45 and I don't know how much stretching it can stand. At any rate, you want to get as much out of its gluten as possible. A lower hydration should help with that,
To have a softer crust, I'd suggest baking at a lower temperature for a longer time. Also you could check the temperature of the inside with a probe-style thermometer. If the interior is getting up to say 208° F/ 98C, it might be baked too hard for your taste and could be taken out sooner.
I find it easier to cut a crisper crust than a soft one. That's with a serrated bread knife. Do you use one? If not, I suggest going right out and getting one.
My own preference is for a rather crispy, crackling crust that has a good contrast in texture and flavor to the inside.
TomP
Thanks for your advice! The crust should be easy to cut. I think my bread might be resilient. The feeling of biting in your mouth requires hard chewing. I have a serrated bread knife. I use T45 flour. Because it's low in gluten. I'll try to turn the temperature down. And extend the baking time. What kind of flour do you use to make bread
Oh, you need low gluten? Some people have reported that after a good sourdough fermentation they don't get gluten-related problems any more. So maybe very-long-fermented sourdough bread will work for you even with higher gluten flour. SOmething equivalent to a US all-purpose flour will work well. With US/Canadian wheat that usually has a protein range somewhere between 10% and 11.5%. Otherwise you could try rye breads, but they are much trickier to make.
I live in the US, and I usually use Gold Medal Unbleached All Purpose Flour, King Arthur's All Purpose Flour, or King Arthur's Bread Flour (12.7% protein). Either AP flour will make a fine loaf of bread, but of course with higher gluten than perhaps you are hoping for.
TomP
I used to use King Arthur's All Purpose Flour and Bob's red Mill All Purpose Flour. I feel the dough is hard. I have allergies, too. So I choose the low-gluten flour of soft wheat. I could try using yeast for longer periods of time to reduce gluten. How do I know if the dough has decreased in gluten if it has been fermented for a long time?
If you actually have an allergy to gluten, you are probably out of luck. But if you have some reaction that's not as severe, you may be able to manage long-fermented sourdough bread. Here's a web site that seems representative of some things that I've read, and maybe with a bit more depth. I don't know if it's correct or not but it could give you a starting point:
https://www.culturedfoodlife.com/can-sourdough-change-the-gluten-free-diet/
A few highlights:
About the mention of einkorn flour - einkorn is expensive, hard to find, and its dough is hard to work with because it's somewhat weak and very extensible. It has a taste that many people like (a little different from regular wheat). So if you decide to try using it, plan to proof and bake the bread in a loaf pan, not free-standing. Once you get some skill and familiarity with it, you can try other styles.
TomP
Also this -
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/23/sourdough-bread-gluten-intolerance-food-health-celiac-disease
Thank you these articles are very helpful! Long-fermented sourdough bread Need more yeast? I read on some websites that they only use flour and water for fermentation. Then put it in the flour. Is that right? Or is it called sourdough bread after it has been fermented for more than 7 hours? I'm a little confused。
There is a recipe for making a 7-hour sourdough bread in the first link I posted. It covers making a starter. There has been a lot of discussion on this site about making starters, so you could try the search function.
Sourdough bread is made using a "starter" (also called by "chef", "culture", and many other terms). The starter consists of yeast cells and certain types of bacteria collectively called "lactic acid bacteria" (LAB), mixed with water. The yeast is not usually baker's yeast but comes from the flour, the air, or sometimes people put grapeskins or other fruity organic substance in hoping they will contribute some yeast.
The yeast and LAB mutually maintain an acidic environment in the culture that makes it hard for other organisms to grow.
During fermentation the yeast and LAB work together to break down the substances in the dough and metabolize them ("feed on" them). In the process they produce CO2 gas that causes the dough to rise, and also ethyl alcohol, together with many other flavor compounds. Given enough time the LAB will also, it is said, break down the phytate compounds that sequester many nutrients and prevent your body from being able to absorb them. They also break down certain gluten components, as the linked pages discuss.
Although the starter is called "sourdough", bread made from the culture is not necessarily sour. Sourdough bread generally tastes better than bread made with commercial yeast.
You can create a sourdough starter by mixing flour and water together, preferably with a little acidic liquid like pineapple juice or vinegar, and waiting. You will have to add new flour and water from time to time according to how the starter develops. Usually a new starter is can be used in about a week, but it will continue to improve over time.
That's not enough detail to actually make a starter (not that it's hard) but it gives you the idea.
You can get a long fermentation using commercial yeast, somewhat simulating a sourdough bread, by using 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of dry yeast, and optionally adding an ounce of liquid drained from yogurt - one that says it has live culture. Or you could just put the yogurt itself in. This won't have all the benefits of sourdough but will be a step in that direction.
TomP
Here's a good procedure for creating a new starter, from our own TFL site -
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233/wild-yeast-sourdough-starter
Hello，
Thank you so much! It helped me a lot. I was reading your blog. I wish I could make sourdough!
Without getting into it - over in general. Enjoy!