Roggenbeck, 100% rye "Type 1150" with 1.15% ash, the "medium white rye" from Central Milling. Detmolder 2-Stage starter development. I'll cool overnight and cut tomorrow.
I really love the top crust on this pan loaf!
You had mentioned some methods for these crusts in your posts to RyeBread. So, was this dough placed seam side up and with no scoring?
I put a score in a pan loaf for rye bread but my score was a hindrance to the nice cracks that did form away from the score.
PS Does "Detmolder 2 stage" refer to something like RyeBread's 2 steps of a 12-24 hr slow ferment followed by 1 shorter ferment? (like in https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/490559#comment-490559 ?)
Thanks for your help!
Thanks very much! Yes, this bread got 45 minutes bulk ferment (Stockgare), and was then turned out and shaped into a long loaf. Seam down into the form. A light brushing of medium rye over the top. It proofs (Stückgare) at 30 C under lower humidity than with other breads. Once the cracks start to develop - I mean, finer lines - I again brushed flour over it, though not heavily - just a good, uniform layer of flour. I did this in this case 3 times more over 50 minutes (no set time, more about gauging width of cracks - for this type of rye, I look for .25 - .3 inches wide. For this style, I like the variances in crack sizes, so I don't let it proof out as fully as with other ryes. I don't want canyons, just fissures! For many but not all of the German sourdoughs, I will also use dry yeast at about 0.4-0.5% (Baker's). If I go with a straight sourdough in something like this, for me it typically takes about 70-80 minutes.
I'll have to look up RyeBread's 2 stage, but I'm almost positive that yes, he's doing the same thing, a Detmolder 2-stage. While Brotland Deutschland gives a first period of 23-27 C and 15-24 hours, I've found that's too long for my tastes, and so I tend to go 12-18 maximally, at 21-22 C. The first stage also has a hydration of 50%. The second stage I do is pretty orthodox, like RyeBread's, 3 hours. 31 C, and this one has a higher hydration, about 80%.
Into the oven at 500 F, with moderate steam (much lighter than when I do French levains, for example). 3 minutes later, I vent it and lower the temp to 410 F, and it went to 80 minutes.
Edit: On scoring. Yes, agree, I believe the scoring will tend to work against the development of these random, interesting cracks. Both give relief to the bread's tension, and so scoring will act as a sort of "pressure relief valve," as you point out.
Thanks for the lesson on cracks and even flour dusting control on crack sizes ! amazing...
So, the nice cracks form with seam side down in the loaf pan. ok will try that.
For the long stage 1 of 12-18hr, I was using clas (plus scant 1/8tsp diy; 0.08% Baker's %) in place of a rye starter. At 6 hr, there was a lot of bubbly dough and so I stopped and went onto the 2nd stage. Do you think that is how to judge ending the first stage?
Thank you again for all your help!!!
Not looking at temperatures / times, from my understanding the main difference between monheimer salzsauer, which I used in a slightly adjusted way, and detmolder 2-stage is that you have only one step for setting up the monheimer salzsauer and go directly to you main dough after the monheimer is ready. Detmolder 2-stage involves two (sourdough-) steps before you start with your main dough. Only looking at the steps for making your sourdough, you could compare monheimer salzsauer with detmolder 1-stage.
I found two papers on Ketex Blog - unfortunately only in German
Sorry Ryebread, I thought he was talking about your doing a two-stage, not Monheimer. Yes, jo_en, Detmolder is two stage with the parameters I mentioned, and Monheimer Salzauer is one stage. Didn't look at RyeBread's links yet but I'm sure they cover it well.
The main difference I see between the Detmolder 1-stage and Monheimer Salzsauer is that the Monheimer requires significantly more "seed" starter (Anstellgut or "ASG") than the Detmolder 1-stage. For me, typically, I run about a 10% ASG inoculation for the Detmolder 1-stage, and up to 40% for the Monheimer Salzauer.
Even though it uses significantly more ASG, the benefit of the Monheimer is convenience - a very large window of forgiveness as to starter vitality, so it gives us some flexibility on bake day. I've never detected much if any difference between the two in terms of sensory or baking qualities.
Interestingly, Brotland gives both processes the same window, 12-20 hours. I've never done well with either when going that long, with the Stage 1 generally 10-14 hours, and maximally 18 hours for the Salzauer. Ambient temps seasonally do play a role for me, however, as our home temps change somewhat through the seasons.
The large window of forgiveness you mentioned was the reason why I started using the monheimer :-)
Yep, me too! Especially for days when for whatever reason I want to bake many breads - kind of like retarding in that way.
How does one sustain the storage starter with Monheim?
When i recently used it, I took some extra off my (saltless) refresh, prior to the actual monheim. (I made a tad extra of the asg “20%”.) That didn’t seem ideal. Can the final salted sour be used as starter for the next batch? Or at least as the seed for a refresh? I tried that one time. But one issue of doing so is it gets hard to calculate the total salt in the loaf since your asg is contributing some too depending on its inoculation.
I have never tried it and I´m not sure what the salt does to the starter in the long run. Would be interesting if someone else has a starter that contains salt. I refresh my starter once a week using some of the last freshment as seed.
I use a normal rye starter for preparing the monheimer salzsauer.
You might be able to store it if you can maintain it @16 °C (61 °F); not an easy proposition.