High Desert Sourdough-Help!
We just moved to Santa Fe, NM a little over a month ago. We moved from Washington State, where I’ve been making sourdough for years without any issues. I was even teaching workshops on it. I have a 183 year old starter. I knew high altitude would affect my bread baking, so I have taken every precaution and step to ensure my bread would continue to come out as nicely as it did in Washington. Here’s my issue: my bread is so full of wild ambient yeast that the wild ambient bacteria that is responsible for the “tang” in sourdough is indiscernible. I’ve done everything to retard the yeast and encourage the bacterial growth: lower hydration in my starter, lower hydration in my dough, bulk fermentation for up to 3 days, but still, all I get is a beautiful, fluffy loaf of white bread-no sour flavor at all. I make sourdough so I can eat it; the acetic (and lactic) acids in the wild bacteria and yeast break down the strands of gluten in the protein in wheat flour. This bread is so full of lactic acid from the healthy activity of the yeast that it really bothers my stomach. Has anyone had this issue, and if so, do you have any suggestions to rectify this problem? Any input and help would be greatly appreciated!
Fermenting 50% of the flour at 30C for a few hours works for me. The acid buildup from the preferment will slow down the yeast for sure. I can make bread that is mild and tall or sour and short simply by varying the time for this first fermentation (preferment). I based my method on posts from Doc Dough and Mariana. I use Doc Dough's starter maintenance plan and Mariana's suggestions to ferment at 30C.
I add a little yeast in the final mix to make sure my bread rises as tall as I want before degradation sets in. It sounds like you may not need to do that.
I make my usual loaf in about 6 hours using starter straight from the fridge.
Edit: I am not at high altitude.
Gary
Hi Gary:
Thanks for your input. When you say you ferment 50% of the flour for a few hours, what does that look like? Do you autolyse first? I’d like to try that, I’d just like to know the exact steps.
Thank you for your feedback!!
My preferment consists of 10% starter (100% hydration from the fridge), 45% hot water from the tap (ours is about 110F), and 45% WW flour. I add the water to the cold starter and stir, then I add the flour and stir. The resulting 100% hydration mix is about 89F. I cover it and put in a cheap cooler along with a quart jar of water that I microwaved for 1.5 minutes. I also have a 7 watt heating mat in there with a controller but the quart jar of warm water does the trick for a few hours in the summer. My goal is 86F for the fermentation.
I typically let it ferment 3 hours. At 2 hours the loaf will be over 5.5 inches tall and mild. At 3 hours it will be about 5 inches tall and sour like I like. At 4 hours it will be only 4.25 inches tall and quite sour.
Next I add the remaining flour, an oat porridge soaker and the remaining ingredients. I mix it for 1 minute using the paddle on my KA mixer, let it rest for 15 minutes, then knead it for 12 minutes on speed 1. Rest for 15 minutes, stretch and fold in seeds if I want them. Shape and into the pullman pan (without the lid).
It proofs in about 1.5 to 2 hours. I bake at 350F for 45 minutes starting with a cold oven.
I have made many variations on this recipe and have consistently gotten tangy bread.
Gary
Hi Gary:
What is the weight of your 10%, 45%, 45%, and also the weight of the additional flour after the 5 hours? Once you do your folds and proofing, do you then refrigerate overnight or pop in the oven after proofing? Thank you for this information.
My pullman pans are 4 inches wide and tall. I typically use 50 grams of flour per inch of length. So in my 9 inch pan I use 450 grams of flour. The total formula goes like this:
Preferment
Let that ferment at 86F for 3 hours. The preferment is bringing so much acid with it that I have to be careful to keep the final rise fast because the dough will begin falling apart.
Soaker (optional but it makes my bread taste great and stay fresh longer)
I cook the soaker in the microwave for 6 minutes on 30% power so that the oats and flaxseed meal soak up the milk. Let it cool while the preferment is happening. The soaker traps water in the oat gel so I can increase the hydration
Dough
I combine all that with the paddle then let it rest for 15 minutes. Then I knead it with my KA spiral dough hook for 12 minutes on speed 1. Dump it out on the counter and let it rest for 15 minutes. Stretch and fold in the 45 grams of sunflower seeds (or walnuts or whatever). Shape it in two tight spirals (like Benito does it) and put them in the pullman pan. Let them rise until they barely reach the top of the pan. Then bake starting from a cold oven at 350F for 45 minutes. I don;'t use the top of the pullman pan.,
That's it.
This process works for me because I need something I can do starting in the morning and ending in the early afternoon. I'm in awe of the people who can work on bread in the evening. I'm so sleepy I can't do anything.
I have had luck with 60F 24 hour cool ferments but maintaining 60F is a bother and I like the more lactic acid taste I get with the warm preferment.
If you desire a longer fermentation for all of the flour, I'd suggest reducing the size of the preferment.
I bought a 4x4x4 inch pan on Amazon and use it for all my experiments. For a while there I was baking every other day while I was tweaking parameters.
the “tang” in sourdough is indiscernible. I’ve done everything to retard the yeast and encourage the bacterial growth: lower hydration in my starter, lower hydration in my dough
Lower hydration retards bacterial growth. Try increasing the hydration (100-125%) and the temperature. 78F is probably high enough to get it going, but if you don't have that kind of temperature control, don't sweat it. You can work with room temperature anywhere in the 70's, because there are other things you can do to move the balance in the direction of bacteria and acidity -- add a little whole grain to your feed mix, or reduce the percentage of ripe starter in your refreshments and ferment for longer. Let it ripen fully between feeds, and be sure to give it several refreshment cycles to adjust and stabilize. Changes won't be fully apparent after one feed. Just don't go crazy and change everything all at once. Try one thing at a time and see how it goes before stacking the next on top.
I tried a higher hydration at first, being in high altitude, and the bread was so inflated, it just about lifted the lid off of the Dutch oven!! I lowered my hydration on this last round of bread, and it may have helped a bit. I have only baked the cinnamon raisin one so far, but I can tell that it’s not nearly as risen and I can taste a little tang in it. I use a mix of rye and artisan whole wheat flours in my preferment, so both the yeast and bacteria have plenty of more complex flour to feed on. I’ll keep experimenting. Thanks for your suggestions.
I should have made that more clear. If the dough inflates too fast, you can cut back on the amount of the flour you're prefermenting. Reduce the amount of levain or starter you're putting into the dough and make up the difference by adding flour and water to your dough equivalent to what you take out of the preferment. But if you're happy with the trajectory you're on and getting the tang you were looking for, no need to change it.
Hi susierose -- For sure, GaryBishop and DebraWink know way more than me. And, admittedly, my home is not at high altitude. But I recently returned from 3 weeks on the Navajo Nation and in Santa Fe and have been mulling on this myself. I have three questions and one thought.
Q's:
1. Have you tried using way less sourdough in your formulas than you normally would?
2. Have you tried super-long preferments rather than super-long bulks?
3. Have your bulks/proofs been in the refrigerator?
Thought:
You could ask for advice at some of the well-received local bakeries. Wild Leaven has gotten some kudos (though I didn't like their ryes at all and was wondering if the bacteria/acids promoted by Santa Fe/Taos air & water produce a different sour than I'm used to) and Sage Bakehouse produces a reasonably good deli-style light rye.
Hope this helps.
Rob