The Fresh Loaf

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Panettone gluten breakdown

lennyk's picture

Panettone gluten breakdown

For the first time in a looonnng time I got  the dreaded cake batter during the second mix when adding the butter.

was making a 6 batch after a very successful 3 batch last week using same process, 

no idea what may have caused this, the first dough was lovely and second was going good until addition of butter.

I may have mixed at just a slightly higher speed but nothing to talk about.

I may have added too much butter at a time, but I have done that before without issue.

Really at a loss when this happens.

Chilled it and came back after several hours to see if the gluten would come together and even added more flour but no go. Gonna butter up some loaf pans and try to salvage something edible.


phaz's picture

Looks like a starter issue - if using one. Enjoy!

SueVT's picture

A couple of questions:

What was your first impasto pH after rising? How long did it take, and did it triple? What temperature do you use for rising?

What kind of mixer do you use? What recipe do you use?


lennyk's picture

Ok, I attempted another failed batch last night.

The PM during 3 refreshes(44%) during the day 3.5hrs or so was reaching 4.05 or a little below.

I did not do a bagnetto since I last used my PM Friday(did bagnetto then) and didnt think I would need to. I keep it bound in fridge.

Strange that it was doing this since in the past it would be around 4.2 for that same time. I mentioned this in the other long PM thread where folks were talking about not acidifying enough.

First mix last night seemed fine strength wise, I forgot to check the ph as it was late as well as this morning but I normally get a good triple at 10hrs. temps are around 27-28c.

I chilled dough for 30mins this morning and then started mixing. 

I did notice slight loss of strength when adding the sugar, yolks and upon first bit of butter it all went downhill.

Then I remembered to pull out my PH meter and the cake batter was 4.0, so definitely a PM acidity issue.

At least I saved half of the butter.

So I gather my PM is now over acidifying and damaging the gluten.

strange that I have made weekly for a few weeks straight no problems. not sure what could cause this.

I would normally store bound for the week and then do a bagnetto and refreshes during the day and start at night.

dunno if PM proofing temps were too high during the 3 refreshes.

I recently changed to a higher strength flour but I did make a couple batches successfully with this flour.


I use a Famag 8s, my belt needs tightening so it squeals a little when the gluten develops so if it is not squealing I know something is wrong.My recipe is a hodge podge I adjusted to suit my local flour.

It has worked for me, I made around 100 panettone during xmas, 3 times a week.

when I recently switched to the higher strength flour I did notice it could take a little more water to get same level of extensibility, as expected.

I am guessing I need to do a rebalancing of sort to get my PM back on track.

Wonder if shorter refreshes would help, eg 2.75hrs

in the past I have also used a popular 3 day schedule from youtube when my PM was sluggish.


SueVT's picture

Agreed, your PM has gotten unbalanced toward acidic, pretty clear from what you've stated. Bagnetto might have helped somewhat, but it seems like the PM is too aggressive. I think your proofing temp was high enough to allow very early maturation of LABs in your dough. 

Your new flour is giving more food to the LM of course,  

I suppose that shorter refreshes would be equivalent to a higher percentage of flour. In either case, the fermentation cycle won't complete down to 4.1.., you'd be interrupting it (and perhaps favoring the yeasts).   I've been following a formula that is not looking for 4.1 at the end of the refreshments, but only 4.2 to 4.3, which may be related to this concept.

We have the same mixer. Mostly I like it very much, because as you know, it can really develop the gluten. I have to watch it a bit, to avoid overheating the dough at certain points, for instance the beginning of the second impasto.