Malt in Hamelman's recipes?
Hi!
I baked the Danish rye with spelt and pumpkin seeds (75% whole rye and 25% whole spelt) from Hamelman's "Bread". In it, he calls for 5% "barley malt". I didn't have the barley malt but I had the Rimrock (Vienna-Style Spring Rye) Malt - Mecca Grade so I ground some and used that. The bread came out OK, as in "it's edible", but I have a couple of observations and a question (or two):
1. It's been over 24 hours and it still is pretty gummy. Interestingly, it doesn't leave much deposit on the knife when cutting it as opposed to the other ryes I baked so far that would leave quite a bit of a deposit on the knife for a couple of days after the bake.
2. According to the recipe the proof should've been done in one hour but it was very slow. The first couple of hours it didn't rise at all. After three hours it looked OK to me but now I think I should've let it go for maybe another hour as there is a separation of crust in the loaf which I'm assuming is caused by underproofing? I wish he gave a visual indication for panned loaves, like Ginsburg, of when they're ready for the bake. The dough's temperature during the proof was 82-86 F. The sourdough itself ripened at 69-70 F for 14.5 hours and looked puffed up. Then all the ingredients were mixed for ten minutes at which point the dough was at 82 F and was then bulked for 15 minutes.
I have nothing to compare it to, but now I feel it's different from the intended result. I wouldn't call it a disappointment, as I'm enjoying the taste, but I wonder how far is it from that intended result? Upon further reading Hamelman recommends using 0.1-0.2 % of diastastic malt. Apparently the malt I used is diastatic as it has "diastatic power" (140-160). Did I use the wrong malt? Did I overdo it at 5% as in the recipe? Would it cause the two issues I described? Does Hamelman mean "dried malt extract" or "deactivated malt (as in crystal/caramel malt or any of the roasted malts with no diastatic power)" when he lists "barley malt" in his recipes? A long time ago I used to brew beer, and, at least to me, "barley (or rye or whatever) malt" meant it had diastatic power to convert the starches into fermentable sugars to make beer which makes me think there may be a difference in how those terms are used in baking and brewing?
IMO the slight gumminess is due to over proofing with another sign of the crust beginning to separate which wuld have resulted in a bakers cavern.
5% diastatic malt sounds like a lot. Don't use it often but I believe 1-2 tsp in a loaf is ample.
E.g. for 500g of flour then about 5g is enough.
5% of 500g is 25g!
If Hamelman requested barley malt at 5% then I think he meant non diastatic. Using the same amount of disatatic malt would be an issue.
Upon further reading, gumminess, at least in this case, may be caused by excessive amount of the malt. "Baker's cavern"? I like the term but never heard it before. Is there a visual guide to defects in bread, especially rye, and possible causes somewhere? As for the loaf itself: now I don't think it was fully risen as it's top was well below the pan's rim. But it proofed for three hours which was supposed to be one and I thought it was enough. Maybe it wasn't. The loaf was scaled at 1.5 kg for 9x4x4 Pullman pan as per Hamelman. The oven spring made it rise slightly above the rim but I think if it was proofed longer the oven spring would be smaller proportionally. The loaf also had cracks in the crust around the top which I think I read somewhere would indicate underproofing but I may be mistaken.
Hi bitcat, I think he means this:
In the headnote the last sentence reads, "Honey can be substituted for the barley malt" which implies that it is used as sweetener. This syrup is non-diastatic. I've had this jar for a long time, but I think I bought it at my health food store. It isn't hard to find. Don't give up on this bread --- despite the confusion, yours looks pretty good :)
Thank you Debra. Just saw "Barley Malt" Which can be either didn't pay close enough attention to what was being made nor did I look up the recipe but "Danish Rye" would have been a big giveaway. It definitely is Barley Malt Syrup. A sweetener and not diastatic.
After substituting that amount with diastatic rye i'm surprised you got such good results. Kudos to you considering. Did a very good job.
But I think the real hero here is my starter. It's just over three years old and we've been through some sh*t together. It's family now. Some nice bakes behind us.
I'll use the syrup next time.
Yeah, that's a good point. Please see my other reply on what I think happened to cause my confusion. Thanks for the encouragement and I certainly won't give up on it as I'm a rye enthusiast! I already got some malt syrup but will have to replenish my supply of whole spelt flour to have another go at it to try achieving a true to form bake. Or at least closer to it. Even with this error it still came out OK. So far there is only one rye loaf that eluded me but maybe it's for another post when I'm ready to talk about it again. That one was a total failure.
I don't see the other signs of overproofing like a compacted lower crumb or pale crust color. The crumb looks pretty even with exception to the crack which might be from exuberant tipping out of the pan or holding a warm or not yet set loaf while cutting slices. My husband was good at man handling my rye loaves before they cooled. Be gentle with them when tipping them out onto a rack.
I think it's a new expression! But more seriously: could be but I think I'm pretty gentle when I remove it from the pan. I can't imagine being rougher with it than the bakers in a bakery setting. And their loaves are always perfect. Also, I always let my loaves cool fully before taking the knife to them. In case of ryes I do my best to give 'em 24 hours before that happens. As for the crack (baker's cavern? that's just a new thing I learned today): the loaf also displays cracks in the upper crust which could indicate underproofing? As I asked in the other reply, is there a guide to defects in rye loaves?
was just another idea for the cause of the crack. If top crust is very hard, it can still tear underneath when cutting. (That is an overrisen spelt characteristic.) The loaf is well risen, perhaps too much. I agree with the others about the high amount of active malt. Docking with a wet toothpick before baking might be a solution to let that pocket of gas escape. After a minute, smooth over the surface with a wet spoon or spatula. A heavy loaf like this one should not rise too much before baking. Very curious about your "other rye loaf failure." Maybe it wasn't. :)
Was looking over a variety of Danish rye recipes and dark malt syrup (sweetner) seems common. You could just leave it out and go for a slightly longer bulk rise in the high 70°'s F (lower temp.) That will give a sweeter taste.
Did you happen to taste the sourdough starter to see if it had enough acid build up or sweet/sour taste and aroma before adding to the dough? I was wondering if perhaps it could have fermented more being under 70°F. In my edition of BREAD, page 190 Hamelman suggests approximately a 30 min bulk for 60 to 80% rye dough. "The incorporation of a nicely ripened sourdough into the dough injects it with substantial flavor."
It is substantial on this loaf. Much thicker and tougher, but not in a bad way, than I usually get on rye loaves. Might have been a good idea to dock it but perhaps I'll let it proof more fully next time so the oven spring is smaller. If I had to choose, I think I'd rather have it fall a little rather than have crust separation. When loaded, the dough filled the form just above half-way and it was scaled properly for the pan. I believe Hamelman meant for the finished loaf to be about the pan's size (9x4x4) as he even mentions that if one were to use the lid, it should be oiled and dusted.
Yeah, I'm now thinking it was an oversight in editing and "malt syrup" should've been used as in the recipes carried over from the previous editions.
I might try the starter taste test next time but I usually go by the visual. And the starter looked pretty good to me after 14 hours. I think 69-70 F was in the perfect range. One degree wouldn't make that much difference, no? Actually, I just remembered that depending where I stuck my instant read thermometer in the starter I'd get anything from 69 to 72 F. I trust the thermometer as it's a Thermoworks Thermapen. The bulk for this particular recipe is supposed to be very short, 15-20 mins. Or, with a particularly vigorous starter, can be skipped all together. I usually have pretty good luck following temperatures and times in his recipes. Sourdough or otherwise. Was surprised by this one, but it may possibly have to do with the active malt throwing the dough's performance out of whack. One for the books in any case!
As for that other disaster, I'll make a post if you'd like to see it, but be prepared! It won't be pretty and might shock you. Once I dig out the picture. Hopefully I saved it to remind myself.
Yes, I think you're right and he meant "malt syrup" to be used in the recipe. What's confusing to me is that some other recipes (i.e. Cracked Wheat Bread, Sunflower Seed Bread) list "malt syrup" as an ingredient and not "barley malt". The only thing I can come up with, since both of the Danish ryes are new additions to the third edition and those other recipes are in previous editions as well, is that there was an oversight in editing. Just a lack of consistency. Even though this loaf is good enough as is, I'll make it again but with the syrup. I need to taste the difference. I'll figure out a way to post a better picture as, unfortunately, this forum's engine does not seem to allow links to full resolution pictures.
The Rye Baker has a very nice Danish Rye.
https://theryebaker.com/sourdough-danish-rye/#more-1191
This one has a bunch of seeds. I'll get to it eventually.
Sourdough, Beer, Malt and Seeds is what makes it a Danish Rye. Standard. I was surprised when you said it was Danish Rye. It didn't have the characteristics. Unless it was A Danish Rye and not The Danish Rye.
In the third edition of "Bread" he added two recipes for Danish rye: this one that I attempted to make, which he calls "Danish Rye Spelt Bread with Pumpkin Seeds" and another called "Danish Black Rye Bread". Apparently he was in Denmark at the annual Harvest Festival at Skaertfort Mølle where he was instructed in making traditional Danish rye breads by Jørgen Bonde and Hanne Risgard. The other bread is all rye (flour and chops) but doesn't include any seeds.
But when one says Danish Rye Bread, without specification, it is The Rye Baker style recipe that springs to mind. Highly recommended.
It's on my list.