Problem with proofing...
Hi all -
My first post! I'm pretty new to baking. Have developed a keen interest in bread, about 20 years too late (was a stay-at-home dad, would have been nice to be baking fresh bread for my family at that time...), but am having a great time learning.
Okay, so I think I have a problem with proofing. Maybe over-, maybe under-. A loaf I baked yesterday:
I'm happy with it, but was very slack going into the Dutch oven, and I couldn't score it. Which is true of almost all my bakes - I've used a bare razor blade and now a lame. The edge drags the bread, tears it a little, but only very occasionally does it cut. Which I've attributed to overproofing. I'm happy with the crumb and structure on this, but I don't think I could have baked it on a stone. I flipped it out of the banneton and it just spread out. Very slack. Still kinda held its shape, but not quite right. I try to use the poke test, but this dough, and the other I baked yesterday, were sticky enough that I think I'd have pulled a big chunk of dough out with my finger.
So, I guess I'm asking how I can tell if I'm at a good proof, without just blindly following a recipe. I'd like to be able to actually score my loaves, but it's frustrating to just mangle them as it currently is.
Thanks for any help!
Scott
Try proofing a little less. Enjoy!
Thanks! What's a good way of determining when that is though?
Watch it. Enjoy!
Your crumb looks very good. What hydration is your dough? You can lower it slightly. Also try dipping your lame in a little water before using. Some people like to put the dough in the freezer or refrigerator for 10-15 minutes which will make it easier to score.
Thank you. Hydration? Hmm, I know what it is, but not how to determine the number. Let me do some research on that. Thanks for the lame tips!
hydration in this context is the total weight of water divided by the total weight of flour, expressed as a percent. example: if your weight of flour and water were the same, your dough would be 100% hydration.
these are called “bakers’ percents”, to distinguish them from more typical weight percentages.
hope that helps,
c
Thank you - that is helpful.
According to that, my hydration was 80%.
that strikes me as a very high hydration (not knowing what your flours are, though). i agree with the previous poster who suggested lowering hydration to improve the dough’s ability to hold its shape and the ease of scoring it.
are you following a particular recipe for your breads? it might be helpful to give more info on that for more specific advice.
fwiw, i think your bread looks great, but might be slightly overproofed. fermenting a little (10%?) less next time and then seeing if things improve is one way to get a feel for when your dough is underproofed, overproofed, or just right. when i was a beginner, i’m not sure i would have understood most experts’ descriptions of how to tell these things.
just my $0.02,
c
Thanks so much for your help. What is a more typical range for hydration for this type of bread?
Recipe was gleaned online, presented here. I tended to observe how much rise I got more than follow the times. My house was warm that day (maybe 71F), so ended up on the low end of the stated ranges. I baked for ~30 minutes in a covered Dutch oven at 475F, then uncovered for about 18 minutes. Oven on convection. This is my second loaf with this protocol, and both turned out pretty much the same.
Thoughts?
Source: Billy Parisi
560 grams of 00 bread flour (I used Red Mill Artisan bread flour)
190 grams of whole wheat flour (I used Castle Valley Mill whole hard wheat flour - Castle Valley Mill Whole Hard Wheat Flour)
600 grams of water at 98° to 100°f or 36-37c
17 grams of Kosher salt
3 grams of active yeast
Instructions:
1. In a large bowl combine with your hands the flours and water until completely mixed together. Let rest for 10 minutes.
2. Next, sprinkle the salt and yeast overtop and mix it into the dough by pinching, stretching and folding the dough over for 4 to 5 minutes.
3. Cover and rest the dough in a warm dark place for 15 to 20 minutes before folding the dough over 5 to 6 times.
4. Cover and rest for 45 to 60 minutes and then fold the dough over 5 to 6 times again.
5. Cover and rest for 2 hours or until it has tripled in size.
6. Dust a clean surface with flour and place the dough onto it. Sprinkle the top with flour and fold the dough over in thirds 3 to 4 times and then begin to mold the dough into a ball by cupping around the dough into the bottom.
7. Place the dough into a floured Benetton and cover and rest for 60 minutes.
8. In the meantime, place a small Dutch oven pot into the oven on 475° for at least 30 minutes.
9. Flip the dough right into the hot Dutch oven pot, cover it and return it to the oven and bake for 30 minutes
10. Let cool for 20 to 30 minutes before slicing and serving.
i think 80% hydration is what the Jim Lahey no-knead bread recipe had, so it’s not crazy. it’s just at the upper end of hydrations for free-form boules like this (ciabatta would be maybe higher, but you also generally get a flatter shape). and high hydration is harder to handle; not where i would suggest a beginner start. i think decreasing the hydration to 75% or even 70% would make the dough easier to handle (shape, score, etc), then you could gradually work back toward 80% if you like.
but: your loaf looks really good for that hydration, so you could keep the recipe the same and just dial back the proofing time until you stop seeing signs of over-fermentation, and see if the handling/scoring improves. you are doing the right thing by altering your times from the recipe’s, based on what you’re seeing in your dough! just aim for slightly less rise either in the bulk fermentation and/or the final proof and see what happens.
i also found that doing my final proof in the fridge (for ~8-12 hours), the dough spreads *much* less when i go to bake it and i get better oven spring. that was a tip i picked up on these forums.
happy to help; you should be really proud of those first two loaves; it took me a while to get anything that looked that nice!
-c
I appreciate the input, again. I'm going to make another loaf of this tomorrow, and am kind of forming a game plan tonight. Right now, I'm thinking dropping hydration to 75-77%, work the dough more early to develop gluten a little more (slap kneading? more stretch and folds?), and maybe doing a cold proof. Stay tuned..
Hi UVCat,
So, if my water is 330 g and my flour 500 g is my hydration 66% ?
Thanks !
yep, as long as those amounts include all of the water and flour in your dough, that calculation is correct. if you use a pre-ferment (levain, poolish, etc), be sure to include the flour and water in those when calculating the total dough hydration.
hope that helps!
-c
Thank you, it does help !
I used to have this problem all the time. I think I was underdeveloping the gluten at the beginning, making the dough too slack and sticky.
Thanks @Econprof. So do I work the dough more (I'm doing a few stretch and pulls during the rise, can do more) to develop stronger gluten?
Thanks!
Doing more at the mixing stage was helpful—slap and folds or rubaud method until the dough seemed pretty smooth and elastic.
Another thing that helped at the other end of the process: leaving the dough uncovered for a good while (up to 30 minutes) after pre-shaping, and not being afraid to use a little flour if necessary. (If your dough is sticking to everything during shaping, it won’t have a nice skin for your blade to slice through.)
The main problem probably *isn’t* your scoring. Everyone says to slice confidently and quickly, but that won’t help if the dough immediately grabs the blade. I remember finding that advice very frustrating.
...the "slice confidently" advice isn't hugely helpful.
For the loaf I'm making tomorrow I'm going to probably try slap kneading early on and see if that helps the dough strengthen a bit. Will see how that goes and may leave uncovered during proofing a bit too. Thanks for your input.
If, despite your best efforts, the dough looks like it will be very difficult to score, you may be better off scoring slowly with a jerky motion and using your other hand (positioned away from the blade) to keep the dough in place. It may not be ideal, but ultimately you want to get the loaf scored.
Thanks for the explanation. Will get it scored, one way or t'other.
Okay, made this recipe again, with the following modifications:
Results:
The dough, this time, seemed much better structured, not as slack, held its shape well. Maybe not perfect crumb, but I'll take it. My scoring game, though, sucks. Went better this time, but still had to go in short, jagged cuts. Which, apparently had little impact on the outcome - loaf doesn't look like it was even scored. Not sure what to do on that.
Anyway, definite progress today. Several firsts, learned slap kneading a bit, got a new mixing bowl and proofing container, so definitely a win.
Thanks for looking.
Scott
that’s a lovely loaf; that crumb would be about perfect in my book. i’m no expert in scoring (i’ve even started baking most of my loaves seam-up so i don’t have to score!), but the shape of your loaf reminds me of what mine tend to look like when slightly over-proofed. something about the slope of the “shoulders” being a little flatter.
maybe scoring issues could create that shape as well, but you could consider decreasing the fermentation a bit more (aiming for less than doubling in the bulk ferment) and see what that does to the score-ability and whether you still get the crumb/flavor you want. the other thing to consider trying is some fridge or freezer time in the final proof (along the lines Isand66 suggested above). i believe that makes the dough less “tacky” and easier to score.
i hope the scoring artists will come along with some other tips/tricks for you, but congrats on the nice bake!
-c