August 20, 2022 - 5:45pm
how soon can I bake with new starter?
I started on Monday, its Saturday, can I bake with it?
I was using the 1cup of flour and 1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of started but switched it to 1:1:1 which made it crazy watery, I don't think its risen at all in 2 days. :{
I fed it this morning back to the first ratio's but still see no rising. Help! The room I keep it in is 75-80 degrees.
All I need is a recipe that
1. doesnt waste so much dang flour! no discards if possible
2. i only want to bake a loaf once a week
p.s. I'm a total newb to all this
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First, yes 1 cup of flour will make quite a bit of waste. 1:1:1 will work, though that is by weight, not volume . If you are going by cups, 1:1:1 will be very watery, so if you have a scale, change to 1 to 1 to 1 by weight and see if you get some rising. I hate to tell you to start over, but I have had great success with the pineapple juice method of creating a starter. use a scale, and the last time I started a starter , I think I started with 25 grams of flour. https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/
That's a pretty common recipe. Two keys:
1) If you have a known good recipe, follow it and don't deviate.
2) Starters are all different - some hit a quiet period and don't do much for a couple of days (or more), some power through and never show a pause.
Tips: Use rye flour if you can get it. Use distilled water or bottled spring water (the stuff in the gallon containers is fine). Tap has chlorine or chloramine in it which kills yeast. IT won't kill all of your developing yeast but it will inhibit things. You can leave water out overnight and chlorine will dissipate but chloramine will not.
As the link above talks about, your starter is ready to use when it's reliably rising and falling in ~8 hours or so.
I have whole grain flour and that worked really well to get it started, maybe when i introduced white flour is went to crap?
should it be rising after every feeding or no?
every ~12 hours but it's not a linear process. If you feed it at 8pm it likely won't do that much between then and 11pm when you go to bed but might be double or more 12 hours later.
If it's very watery, it's not 1:1:1. I can't emphasize enough how much a decent scale helps. Something $20 or under is all you need.
thank you! I have a digital scale, i'll be using it now
every ~12 hours but it's not a linear process. If you feed it at 8pm it likely won't do that much between then and 11pm when you go to bed but might be double or more 12 hours later.
If it's very watery, it's not 1:1:1. I can't emphasize enough how much a decent scale helps. Something $20 or under is all you need.
you probably have a starter but it's too watery for you to recognize any signs. Do this. Let the starter settle so you can see the flour on the bottom and a layer of water on top.
After a few hours, is the water clear or hazy?
If clear, gently pour off most of it trying to keep the flour in the glass. Stir and Keep about 1/4 cup. This gets fed with a few spoons of flour to thicken to a paste. Mark the level. Let ferment. Report back when it rises.
If is foggy then yeast are at work clouding up the water. Stir it up, then pour off 1/4 cup to thicken with flour. Like above. But save the rest into the fridge while you feed this sample. If it rises right away within 6 hours after feeding flour, you can use the rest of this thin starter in bread instead of plain water. Keep a quarter cup and feed and maintain as a starter but feed with less flour and water than you have been.
I tried drying it up but adding more flour than water last night, so looking at it now i dont see any water on top! :/
theres are some air bubble holes looking down into it. i assume i can still do the latter instructions you mentioned to save it?
also can i switch to whole wheat flour, would that help at all? Versus white flour?
tried this, it did nothing. the solution was VERY dry i dont see how it couldve risen.
the short answer is: no, you probably can't bake with it yet. It isn't rising and falling regularly yet -- which is one of the principal signs of a happy, yeasty starter. Don't despair. Keep going. I used Maurizio's rye flour method highlighted by clevins. It works great, but, being honest, it took 3-4 weeks to get the stuff rising and falling consistently (and a long time thereafter to learn more about its quirks; in fact I'm still learning two years on.)
1. what kind of flour are you using. There's no way 1:1:1 should be insanely watery unless your flour is ultra light or for some reason resists absorbing H20.
2. Like you, I started with volume measures, but my starter really improved (and I was able to cut way way way back on discards) when I got a scale and started weighing in grams.
Rob
I fully agree with sqauttercity. Not only does it need to rise and fall, but I feel it's not ready for about a week after it's second rise and fall.
...rose and fell consistently about a week or so in. I don't think a properly done starter should take 3+ weeks.
You're not looking for doubling in 4 hours to be usable (though that is Good Thing) but doubling or more in 8-12 hours.... and doing that consistently and easily when it's in the 75F/25C range.
Rather than go by time, go by whether the starter does that.
Finally, go by weight, not volume measurements. 1/2c water weights a lot more than 1/2c flour so if you do equal volumes, you're NOT doing 1:1:1. Get a cheap gram scale. Until then, you're looking for a stiff batter consistency when everything is together.
Ha! Yes, you're undoubtedly right, but the key phrase is 'properly done.'
I was using volume measures -- tbsps of flour, tsps of water -- and didn't get a scale for months. At which point I discovered I was seriously under-hydrating my starter, causing it to develop more acids than yeasts. And over time the acids had started killing the yeasts. It was my own personal version of The Shining: I was murdering my own starter as I was feeding it.
A digital scale transformed my understanding of both starter and dough and made for a shift in the quality of the breads I bake.
LMAO!!!!!! the shining ...that made me laugh SO HARD i had to read this post to my husband, thank you for that.
i started with whole wheat, switched the white, then last night back to wheat (to try and revive it?? idk)
the starter is further along than average starters. I would like to see a photo of the starter and know how it smells and tastes, prickling on the tongue (taste and spit it out.) Is any sign of effervescence seen on the side of the starter?
For the record, I have been making watery sourdough starter for decades. I can't say that it is good or bad, just that it is the way I was taught. One of the members here helped me figure out the hydration, which is 148%. I mix 2-1/2 cups bread flour, 2 cups water, and ~1 cup of "seed" until lumps are mostly gone. Cover with plastic and let it reach a foamy point in 4, 6, or 8 hours. Take one cup out and put it in the refrigerator as the next seed and use the rest. Repeat as often as desired, but at least once every two weeks. You can get away with four weeks delay once in a while, but not often.
By the second or third day, there is typically a layer of relatively clear liquid on top of the seed. I was taught to call it "hooch" and always keep it and stir it in with the starter.
While fermenting on the counter, the starter bubbles and eventually starts to foam a little, but it does not grow like most starters I see here. If I leave the seed out, unrefrigerated, it will eventually foam over the top of the container. In the refrigerator, it does not foam over.
my problem is no matter what it just isnt rising anymore, its been more then a couple of days now. I guess its time to toss it i havent a clue.
Starters take at least a week or so to really become stable. They often show early activity, then subside and then come back to life and continually starting over doesn't work. AGAIN... do something like this https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/ and use a scale.
Making your own sourdough starter is definitely a popular way to go. You end up with a starter that is unique and special to you. Everyone seems to do it these days.
My preferred method is to obtain a quality sourdough starter from an existing source - family, friend, a local bakery (if they are nice about it), or even trustworthy strangers. In my case, a family member gave me some and I kept it going for decades. About ten years ago, the sourdough starter died (my fault!). The family member had long since passed away, so I ordered free sourdough starter from Carl's Friends here:
http://www.carlsfriends.net
It can take up to several weeks for the dried starter to arrive from Carl's Friends. They mail a small amount of dried starter, which you reconstitute yourself. It doesn't take long (say, a few days) and you are baking with it. I have kept that initial seed of Carl's Friends sourdough starter going for about ten years.
You can also buy sourdough starter from various sources on the internet. Some offer a variety of starters from all over the world. I am open minded, but I wonder whether it matters that much - the starter you keep will incorporate local bacterias that change the character of the starter anyway.
Where do you live? Perhaps someone here would be willing to dry some of their starter and mail it to you. I sent it to various family members at the start of the pandemic, when they could not obtain regular commercial yeast. According to one family member, people in their neighborhood in the Bay Area shared starters by tacking up small baggies on telephone poles for others to take. It became "a thing" there.
When we talk about ratios (1:2:2 etc) we're talking weight. Not volume. All of you who are having issues with starters being watery need to either get a scale and weigh things or at least mix to a consistency by eye. Using ratios but doing it by volume is simply not going to work. It's totally invalid.
"By the second or third day, there is typically a layer of relatively clear liquid on top of the seed. I was taught to call it "hooch" and always keep it and stir it in with the starter. "
No, that's water. Hooch is actually a fermentation product.
Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but we troubleshoot this over and over and I've linked to a known method for making a starter several times. Yet some of you just don't seem to be listening. People here are vary helpful, but at some point you have to actually take that help and use it. We can't do it for you.
I have nothing against @clevins suggestions and methods. I highly recommend that you follow their advice and ignore mine. They know more than me.
I documented what I was taught, the way it was taught to me, volume measurements and all. When I make the sourdough starter as I described above, I actually weigh the bread flour at 4.7 ounces per cup. I measure the 2 cups of water in a Pyrex measuring cup. It works for me, that's all. And that is the point.
I was careful to characterize the liquid as 'I was taught to call it "hooch"'. The person who taught me that was an expert, well known throughout our county for their bread making skills. Sorry, it was a long time ago. Perhaps the formal definition of "hooch" has tightened since then. (Lacking any other term and following the teachings of my master, I will continue to call it hooch. clevins can call it "pee" or whatever else they want.)
The essential point of my post was that you can succeed with very wet starters. I have done it that way for decades. It seems to work. None of the people who ate that sourdough bread complained that I used volume measurements, and they all survived.
My post was never about saying, "do it my way" or "my way is the only way" or "do not follow the official FreshLoaf-Approved method", or anything like that. I hope that I have made it very clear.
Everyone: cold proof, aka chill.
We're all misunderstanding each other and "misunderestimating" each other.
There are lots of ways to create a starter. No one has any patent on techniques. No one method is guaranteed to work for everyone. And we are all humble amateurs trying to help one another.
troglodiyte was talking about using bought or donated starter as 'seed' -- already active in other words -- so it's possible there was hooch in 3 days.
clevins pointed to a method for creating a rye starter. It works. I used it (along with this one: http://tartine-bread.blogspot.com/2013/02/9-days.html) as inspiration and got great results. But it took extra time because I did not own a scale.
My advice to distortedlinds is: keep going. Starters are not bots: the don't pop into action automatically. They take time and consistency -- particularly if you don't have a scale. Follow the recipe you have chosen. Don't get too crazed if it seems like there's no action. There will be. Yeasts are patient. They will arrive.
Rob
my freshly milled rye starter smelled pretty rancid and vomit-y for at least a week or two.
now it smells wonderful. just give it time. if it molds, throw it out and start over, otherwise all it needs is more time. it's done when it smells like something you'd eat.
yes...there's the acetone smell and the vomit smell and the bile smell and .... eventually you make bread.