Terrible GF Aftertaste when baking with Yeast
Hi everyone!
I saw a post here a few years back about a terrible acrid aftertaste when making yeasted GF bakes. Wanted to see if anyone's discerned the culprit of this taste/how to counteract it.
I've been experiencing this problem whenever I bake with Yeast and GF flours.
This has happened no matter what flours I use (store brand mixes such as Better Batter and Cup4Cup, homemade mixes, using xantham gum as the binder, using psyllium husk flour as the binder). At this point, I've done so many variations w/ flour combos, I'm confident this isn't an issue with rancid flour.
Whenever I bake without yeast, I don't experience this issue - so assuming it's some sort of weird interaction. For reference i typically use SAF instant yeast, but have also experience this issue with Red Star Active Dry
Any advice is appreciated!
Edit: Adding an update up here as well
I repeated the cinnamon bun recipe I mentioned in some of the other comments for control with the intention of only adjusting the amount of yeast. Only thing I changed was halving the yeast (SAF Instant) from 1 tbsp to 1/2 Tbsp (using volume measurements). I treated it the same as i have before (activating it in warm milk with honey).
I also ensured my flours were not rancid - they all smelled fresh.
Overall a great improvement. I still had the smallest hint of that bitter aftertaste in more of the center of the buns (where it was softer), but it tasted so much better. For my next batch, will experiment to reducing the yeast to 1 tsp, and hopefully that will completely eliminate that flavor!
Are you using and what's in the store bought mixes?
I typically use Better Batter (Rice flour, brown rice flour, tapioca starch, potato starch, potato flour, pectin (lemon derivative), xanthan gum.
Cup4Cup (Cornstarch, White Rice Flour, Brown Rice Flour, Milk Powder, Tapioca Flour, Potato Starch and Xanthan Gum.)
And then personal mixes that use things like Psyllium Husk Powder, Oat Flour, Sorghum Flour, Brown Rice Flour, White Rice Flour, Tapioca Starch, Potato Starch, Corn Starch, Xantham Gum, Flaxseed Meal, Almond Flour
It's a usually a unique combo for each recipe
Millet has a strange after taste but I see you don't use it.
Why don't you eliminate if the yeast is the issue and try a soda type bread with the flour. If the taste is still there then the yeast is not the issue and we'll try something else.
Process of elimination.
Yeah, believe you're spot on, I do quite a bit of gluten free baking, so I know it's definitely the yeast interacting with something (or perhaps I'm treating it incorrectly), since that's the only time i'm experiencing this bad aftertaste.
I'm avoiding it where I can (like making cake donuts instead of yeast donuts), but would love to make some lovely yeasted buns and bread if i could!
How about changing the yeast? Try a different brand or even the same brand but a new packet.
How are you using it in a recipe? What is a typical recipe?
Here's the most recent recipe where I had this issue! I've had this problem both with Red Star Active Dry and Instant SAF, but couldn't hurt to try another brand.
Typically both with Active Dry and Instant I activate the yeast in 105-115 degree milk, and let it sit for 5-10 min until foamy.
It does seem that your problem stems from too much yeast. The linked recipe from your favorite author asks for active dry yeast, like Fleishmann's traditional ADY or SAF-levure, both looking like small and irregular roundish granules, and you are using instant yeast (Red Star IS instant yeast although it is called active dry) which look like tiny vermicelli.
So, with your yeast you need about 2 times less yeast than in the recipe that you linked. 1 generous Tbsp (12g!!!)of instant yeast per such small amount of flour (2.5 cups) is a giant amount, make it 1/2Tbsp or even 1tsp. Otherwise, your yeast produces too much alcohol and the resulting breads and buns taste bitter, like vodka, even though they might not smell like alcohol at all.
It happened to me once with too much yeast, bread tasting weirdly bitter.
oh wow, i had no idea red star was actually instant!! I'll try reducing by half moving forward!
is there a general rule of thumb on how to gauge if a recipe is calling for too much yeast? Is there a golden ratio of some sort?
I am not familiar with GF baking that much, but in the regular baking there is no such rule of thumb or a golden ratio of yeast, because it depends both on the richness of the breads and on the method used, with or without preferments, etc.
You can trust other people''s recipes and their amounts of yeast for as long as you use the same type of yeast and treat it as is indicated in the recipe.
For example, traditional active yeast is normally activated in warm water or milk for 10-30min, but your instant yeast should not be activated, for it will produce too much alcohol, acid and gas. It is usually mixed with flour, with dry ingredients. If you wish, you can bloom your instant yeast in warm milk, by stirring it until it "dissolves", but do not let it sit for 10-15 min in that warm milk.
stuff. Be careful how it is handled and transported. If it gets too warm or left in a hot car while shopping, it could aquire a bad taste and might not preform well. Package it with cool groceries and be careful with it. Also when purchasing, be aware of where the yeast is displayed. Dark and cool. I can't answer for the transport to the store but changing up the yeast or buying in a cooler season of the year could help in the long run.
I typically store my Active Dry in the Fridge, and Instant in the freezer!
I've tried baking standard (non gf) bakes with it, and it doesn't have any issues
Welcome Alice !
Just thinking out loud:
How long and at what temps are the rise times? Could something be spoiling?
Are you using recipes (specifically rise times, and amount of yeast) that were orginally created for GF flours, or are you using GF ingredients swapped into a recipe that was originally created for wheat flour?
Bowls, proofing vessels, and cloth liners: What materials are these made from? Wood? Aluminum? Plastic? Could interaction be causing the off flavor?
Is there anything acidic in the yeasted GF recipes? Such as vinegar, fruit juices, vinegar, buttermilk, yogurt?
Are any spices in the recipes?
The rise times do vary - typically anywhere from 1 hour - 3 hours depending on the recipe.
I'm actually using Aryan Goyoaga (Her newest book Bake Simple) for most of my gf recipes. They're specifically formulated to be GF.
Typically I proof in a stainless steel bowl covered with cling film. I'd say most of the time there's something acidic in the dough, but I don't encounter any issues when doing standard Non-GF baking (my fiance is GF, so I'm using GF flour when making recipes for him, and standard AP/Bread flour when baking for others).
I did see a thread a few years back that says GF recipes might need different yeast amounts? But I'm not really sure how to compensate/treat the yeast differently in gf recipes.
I'm sure the answer is in how i'm handling the yeast, but alas, can't find concrete or much info on it!
Might be the flaxseed meal. It can easily go rancid once ground.
I think the taste being described suits this theory.
I always buy whole flaxseed, grind it myself, only 1/3 to 1 cup at a time , keep the ground portion in the freezer (it does not solidify) and use it up in 3 weeks, and then grind more.
There could be another ingredient that is only going in the yeasted products, which might be the guilty party.
I'm leaning to the warmed milk.
Alice, can you give more details on the milk, butter, and honey ?
Sure thing! Typically I use whole milk warmed to 105-115. For honey I typically use a mild wildflower honey. For the butter I usually buy 365 organic unsalted butter
Have all the off-tasting products had warmed milk? (I assume it's regular grocery store pasteurized and homogenized cow's milk.)
If not milk, have all the off-tasting products had warmed liquid?
How are you heating the milk or water? What is the vessel (in which you heat it) made of?
Not all the gf bakes have used warmed milk, but a majority of them do have it. It is indeed regular grocery store pasteurized cow's milk.
Typically i heat the milk in a glass pyrex in the microwave
Edit: All my gf yeasted bakes typically have warmed liquid, since that's how I go about activating the yeast
Have a whiff and taste the flaxseed. It's the only thing I can think of going rancid. I'm sure you haven't used the same milk for all your bakes but I bet you have a bag of flaxseed meal that isn't used up too quickly.
will do! good to know that flaxseed goes bad so quickly
As the milling releases the oils. Whole flaxseed not as big an issue. But always store correctly and once opened use quickly. Don't buy too much in one go so it doesn't get used up quickly enough.
Flaxseed meal will go rancid easily. Once ground it's shelf life is shortened. Has to be kept cool and in an airtight container.
Don't buy too much at once and store correctly. You might have switched to yeast and think it's the yeast causing the issues when it could be rancid flaxseed.
M: I'm impressed! You zeroed right in on it. [salute!]
One clue that I missed in the recipe is that 1 tbsp of yeast should have been about 9 to 9.3 grams, not 12 grams.
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Alice: Just curious, did you weigh out 12 grams, or did you use 1 tbsp? (Not that it matters at this point -- I concur with mariana. But just out of curiosity.)
There's not much difference between the two yeasts - only in preparation. If the amount used is the same as in the recipe it's really not an issue. On needs to be activated but the other doesn't but it is activated it's not the end of the world. And 10 minutes of activation won't cause so much alcohol that there will be off flavours. Conversion isn't as important as fresh yeast to dried yeast as long as one watches the dough. As a rule follow the recipe but as mistakes go it's not that bad.
We haven't gotten to the bottom of the problem yet.
You have a point... knowing for sure has to wait until alice reports back on what remedy works.
I'm at least leaning towards mariana's explanation now. And more so if alice weighed out 12 grams instead of using 1 tbsp, which would be 9.3 grams.
There is all that galactose sugar in the milk, plus sugars in the honey, plus the 105 F initial temp of the liquids, plus the minerals and vitamins in the honey.... I can see how it all could supercharge the yeast and give it a head start.
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Another idea: Remember the thread where Troy thought that raw honey was bringing in extra LAB and throwing something off?
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70523/country-loaf-and-without-ryw
All that sugar and warmth might make LAB bloom too, if some LAB is there.
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Alice: is your honey raw (or merely filtered) or pasteurized?
I typically use this brand of honey
but sometimes use this one when the other is out of stock
The first one doesn't specify on the label. The second one says raw.
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As to the 1 tbsp (9.3 grams) versus 12 grams discrepency in the recipe, it's anyone's guess how that came to be.
I just now weighed 1 tbsp of Fleishmann's instant yeast and got 9.7 g.
--
Anyways, at least now you have several hypotheses to test. Please report back so future readers (and your present helpers) can see what works.
Yeah! Thanks for all your help. Excited to start experimenting and will report back!
Reporting back on results so far!
I decided to repeat the cinnamon bun recipe I mentioned in some of the other comments for control. Only thing I changed was halving the yeast (SAF Instant) from 1 tbsp to 1/2 Tbsp (using volume measurements). I treated it the same (activating it in warm milk with honey).
My fiance and I also smelled each one of my flours to make sure non were rancid, and they all smelled fresh to us. (The Flaxseed meal, which I used for my last batch of these cinnamon buns was the same package, and I didn't perceive any issues with it)
Overall a great improvement. I still had the smallest hint of that bitter aftertaste in more of the center of the buns (where it was softer), but it tasted so much better.
for my next batch, will experiment to reducing the yeast to 1 tsp, and hopefully that will completely eliminate that flavor! If not, ill keep tinkering
Very excited about these results, and will keep reporting back on any progress!
I typically weigh my ingredients (unless it calls for like a packet of yeast specifically)