June 9, 2022 - 1:26pm
Yeast water
I’ve been making sourdough bread for a while now, still somewhat of a beginner. Some people in my family don’t seem to like the bread to be too sour, especially for sandwiches that aren’t grilled.
Recently I created some yeast water using raisins. I made some bread using that vs regular sourdough starter. To me it’s a bit too sweet, and absolutely not even a little bit sour. I loved the process, and the ease of using that starter, but I’d like at least SOME sourness in my breads. Can you create a sourdough type bread using the yeast waters and end up with maybe a slightly sour bread?
Did you replace a lot of the water with yeast water? That's one way to do it. But another way is to do two builds. First is just to convert a little of the yeast water into a starter by mixing in some flour. The second build is the first build plus flour and water! This way not a lot of yeast water is used.
If you want a little sourness in a yeast water bread but be able to control it more so than adding sourdough starter then add a little yoghurt, or kefir, to the final dough.
I did make a starter out of the yeast water, half bread flour, half yeast water. It rose VERY quickly!
How much starter in the final dough? What was the final dough recipe?
Sounds like you have a strong yeast water.
This was a sandwich bread. Recipe was for 2 loaves, 8 x 4 pans. Starter 202 grams, water 439, honey 33, oil 27, flour 675, salt 14. This was a purposely scaled down recipe to fit the smaller pans. 1 hour autolyse, add salt, 30 minutes, 4 stretch and folds. Overnight CR, shape and rise next morning.
And over 100g of yeast water. So an idea would be two builds for the starter.
Example...
20g flour + 20g yeast water. Allow to mature.
And for the second build...
40g starter + 81g water + 81g flour. Allow to mature.
Two builds will get the yeasts nice and active, it's a nice transition to the final dough and you've only got 20g (sweet) yeast water.
Take out or reduce the honey and add in some yoghurt.
Thank you for the suggestions! I’d like to give this another try, see if I don’t end up with Kings Hawaiian roll bread next time.
Hope it turns out well. Yoghurt in bread is nice. Also adds to the texture.
Do you think I will end up with any true sourdough flavor using the yeast water? I’m not detecting any in the bread I made today.
As the leavening you won't get any sourdough flavour. Its primarily a yeast ferment. If you're looking for some sourdough flavour it'll need to come from sourdough starter or something like yoghurt or kefir alongside the yeast water.
Ok. This is good to know. Maybe this isn’t the direction I want to head after all. I’ve grown to enjoy the sourdough flavor profile but I was attempting to create something less sour for a couple family members who wanted tamer sandwich bread.
I might have better luck just shortening the process, maybe skip a cold retard. I rushed a Tartine bread the other day and it was pretty mild.
You can maintain the starter or build a preferment in a way to reduce acidity. For example, if the issue is the vinegary tang, try using higher hydration starter and/or preferment, and/or higher temperature of fermentation. This would shift the balance to lactic acid, and hence give more dairy-like notes than sharp vinegary acidity. Alternatively, you can try using a stiff preferment with a couple of quick builds - something in the style of Lievito Madre.
There are a lot of threads here and elsewhere online about reducing acidity of sourdough, lots of possibilities. Excluding cold retard is the easiest option, probably, if you have it in your recipe now.
Thank you for the interesting suggestions. I’ve recently heard of the Lievito Madre method but have not researched it yet.
Makes a very tasty bread. Look up on this site Community Bake Hamelman's Swiss Farmhouse Bread. While tasty it isn't sourdough. Still worth keeping and alternating bakes for variety. Sourdough can be tangy or mild all depending on how its used. Also look up here or on Google Double Fed Sweet Levain for a mild sourdough.
Yes! The world isn’t black and white, is it? I don’t need to make only one kind of bread 😊. I’m so new at this, I’m still trying to make things work for everyone.
Here’s the thing. I had several family members begging for “sourdough” bread. I worked very hard to succeed at the task. Well, turns out these same people who thought they loved sourdough had never eaten TRUE sourdough. They’d had grocery store and restaurant versions, which are most definitely not the same. My sourdough made with only natural starter were a lot more intense than what they were used to. I’m trying to create something little tamer.
Supermarket is rarely, if ever, true sourdough. As Ilya has said sourdough can be tangy to mild and everything in-between but it all depends on how its maintained and uses in the final dough.
Try this...
Night before feed your starter as you normally would to use the next day. Dont worry about it being too tangy.
The day of baking start early and do another feed as follows...
Say you need 100g starter build it like so... 20g mature starter + 40g water + 40g flour (1:2:2). But use after about 3 hours (give or take). In other words catch it active but not too mature. You wish to see bubbles and some rise but shouldn't be peaked.
Then use in the dough. Watch the dough and not the clock.
I will try that. I’ve been keeping a small amount of starter in the fridge, then taking it out a day or two before use, feeding it several times. I’ll have to figure out a routine that works. Maybe this practice is creating a more sour starter?
Should make it less sour. Interesting!
Try this method but don't drive yourself crazy with multiple feeds.
Two feeds... one the night before allowed to mature overnight and then a second the day of. Build enough the night before so you have enough spare starter for a 1:2:2 feed the day of and catch that second feed sooner. You should see some activity, shouldn't be peaked and have a yeasty aroma.
Awesome! I will try this next week. I’m at the point in learning where I could easily drive myself crazy. 😊
You control your starter. It shouldn't control you. Most of all enjoy the process. It needn't be too complicated and you shouldn't be spending most of your time feeding your starter.
Yes, I agree. I’m not a big fan of keeping my starter on the counter and feeding and discarding on a daily basis.
I just happen to have the Ken Forkish book with the Double fed recipe in it. I’ll go grab that book.
Maybe try something like this... For your recipe above that had 202g starter (assuming 100% hydration), 96g flour + 96g yeast water + 10g sourdough starter. Or, as Abe mentioned do a 2-part build... First build = 15g flour + 15g yeast water. Second build = First build + 81g flour + 81g water (or yeast water) + 10g sourdough starter.
I've made many levains that use yeast water and sourdough starter in the build. Increase or decrease the amount of sourdough starter to change the level of sourdough flavor. Even a couple grams of sourdough starter in the build will impart some flavor.
Best of luck!
Thank you. That sounds interesting as well. When you’ve made breads using both types of starters, what have your goals been? Were you trying to cut the sourness, or did you have other reasons?
When I first got into sourdough, I struggled with getting a strong starter. I couldn't get the feedings right and my levains were always kind of flops. However, I was able to make yeast waters that leavened bread pretty well. So, the original thought behind it was giving my sourdough starter a little extra boost.
I finally got to a point where my starter is stable and reliable, so I can experiment more with "sourness". Also, I think Ilya mentioned previously that you can control the "sourness" with how you maintain the starter as well. If your family doesn't like the vinegary/acetic sour but doesn't mind the fruity/yogurty sour, take a portion of your starter and do a few refreshes at 120-125% hydration and 78-80 deg F. It will change the flavor profile of your starter and the bread you get from it.
Thanks for the explanation. My goal going in was to find a sourdough sandwich bread that was mildly sour, but I didn’t want it too enriched with milk and butter. This one has honey and olive oil, but somehow ended up a bit too sour for the majority (not me). I also didn’t want it to be too heavy.
You may have already said this and I didn’t pick up on it, but could you feed your regular sourdough starter the yeast water and end up with something a little milder?
One with yeast water and one with sourdough. You may get enough fermentation from using both in a batch of bread that the sourdough flavor isn't quite so strong.
Or, build your sourdough levain as you ordinarily would but add some baker's yeast to the final dough. It will ferment in less time, which means the sourdough flavor will be milder.
Paul
I can’t say for sure. The first time you used the yeast water it would boost the yeast population and possibly make the starter ripen sooner. In that case, you would possibly have a lower bacteria population and less acidity. I think it would probably go back to its normal ratio of yeast to bacteria over time though (unless you continued to hit it with yeast water). For me, that’s one of those “a test is worth a 1,000 opinions” scenarios. On your next refresh, take your discard and refresh if with yeast water as the hydration instead of water. Compare the two starters after they ripen. See what you get for aromas.
If your starter is healthy and stable, I personally wouldn’t mess with it by adding yeast water. I would start by doing the combination levain and see if you can get the flavor you want by adjusting how much sourdough starter is used. Plus, keeps you from having to maintain two starters.
Thanks so much for all of these suggestions. I feel like I have something to do work with now. It will be fun to experimenting! Can’t wait!
How would I add yogurt to a yeast water bread if it’s not specifically called for? Do I replace some of the liquid?
Replace some of the water for yoghurt however keep that water you have replaced to one side. Form the dough and add that replaced water back in slowly if the dough needs it and until the dough feels right.
You'll have to go by feel but doing it this way, working up, is the best approach rather than just guessing and adding everything at once from the start.
Thank you. I think I’ll try that. The bread has potential but definitely needed a little zing! All I have is fat free Greek yogurt. Maybe I’ll get something with a little fat.
Will add nice texture too. I'm sure fat free Greek yoghurt will be nice though.
What you could do is add a little olive oil too. Yoghurt and olive oil make a nice combination in a bread. Depending on how much expect it to rise slower.
I wonder how much to add asked needy me.
Two tablespoons yoghurt and one tablespoon olive oil. Hold back some water. Mix the yoghurt, olive oil and starter in the water. Mix the salt and flour and make a well. Add the liquid and form the dough. If dry slowly add in the water held back.
Oil is often added later but no harm doing it this way. Many ways to approach a recipe. You can also begin to form the dough and then add the oil. Or incorporate an autolyse then add the oil and salt... etc.
Thanks again for your assistance! I have two different yeast water breads going , with yogurt additions.
I actually tossed my sourdough starter because it had a very funky taste, and will start over with a new one in a couple weeks, and didn’t really want to dive back into yeast breads just yet.
Should last indefinitely. We'll need to look into that when you're ready to start again.
I'm refreshing my yeast water at the moment.
Best of luck and looking forward to seeing your results.
Thanks. My starter was performing but had developed an unpleasant flavor profile. I finally got fed up and pitched it. Too much work goes into a sourdough loaf to have the flavor be a disappointment. Yes, that’s a whole other subject! The two yeast water breads will be complete tomorrow!
Yesterday and today I completed the bakes of my experiment YW breads, with the yogurt addition. I ended up baking up the artisan style one last night because it seemed too excited to wait till today ☺️ That one may have been a tad bit overproofed but still quite a lovely bread that rose to great heights!
Today I baked the sandwich bread (a Baker Betty recipe) and that one was very encouraging. I gave it away but did cut off a slice before I let go of it. Mmmmmm! I’m kind of wondering if I’ll even want to go back to sourdough?!
Today I’ve started the sandwich loaves again, only this time I added a little sour cream along with the Greek yogurt.
I pretty much followed all of the instructions in the recipe, but held back a little water to make up for the yogurt/sour cream additions. There will be several stretch and folds, and an overnight CR. I took pics of my bakes, but not sure they’re postable.
I am noticing that working with a yeast water bread, and trying to follow a sourdough time frame, the yeast water dough moves along at a much quicker clip! Maybe I will have to use less in a recipe. I simply replaced the sourdough starter with yeast water starter. This is quite the science experiment!
Hi Laura! I'm fairly new into the YW baking scene as well. I did notice the first loaf I made had some different characteristics to my typical sourdough loaves...fermentation was quicker and the texture of the dough was kind of dimpled. I had also used YW to replace all the water called for in the dough, which was too much. However, the resulting loaf had tremendous crumb and a very moist texture. Since scaling back to no more than 50% YW for the hydration, I've had much better success (also making some fantastic pizza dough with apple YW too).
I follow the formula mentioned in the previous comments of doing a 'refresh' of the refrigerated apple YW the night before a bake, leaving it in a cold oven with the light on all night. In the early morning, I do a second refresh/levain that I plan on using in the dough--this second refresh reaches peak very quickly, in less than 3 hours. I follow the same steps and formula as my regular sourdough bakes but also use a portion of YW for the dough hydration.
The type of YW you use can also greatly impact the flavor of your bakes. I found the raisin/date YW a little too strong for my taste and prefer the apple YW as it doesn't impart any residual flavors (at least in my experience). It seems to last forever in the fridge, needing very little care beyond an occasional addition of some fresh apple pieces (after discarding a couple old ones) every few weeks.
Good luck on your adventures! I hope you will keep us posted. Happy baking!
Thanks! This is a super fun experiment, and could very well replace my desire to even mess with sourdough.
So far I’m having the best results just making a leaven out of the YW and flour, letting that rise (so quick!) and using a little less water to make up for my yogurt additions. If I can coax some extra flavor out of the yogurt and today’s additional smidge of sour cream, this may be good enough, at least for now. My sourdough starter was so sour, the resulting breads weren’t all that popular except for toast.
Sourdough and Yeast Water. I've had my sourdough starter for many years and it has never let me down. Yeast Water is every bit as fascinating and makes lovely bread. A different flavour profile but very tasty all the same.
My YW had been sitting at the back of the fridge for goodness knows how long. Discarded everything except one tablespoon of the yeast water. Added fresh raisins and topped back up with water. Within about 12 hours all the raisins were floating and had loads of bubbles. It's amazing how quickly it comes back to life after being neglected for a little while. The yeasts are just waiting for food and as soon as they get some they're ready to go.
I think you should give sourdough another chance. However if you like yeast water, find it easier and like the idea of adding in yoghurt for that sourdough flavour then by all means go down that route. Everyone has methods they enjoy and like the results of. You must find yours.
What you could do as a side experiment is make a starter from yeast water but carry on maintaining it like a sourdough starter and see how quickly it changes and becomes indistinguishable from a sourdough starter made from just flour and water.
Yes! I’m just taking a breather from the sourdough world, but I’m sure I’ll try again. This is quite fun in the meantime , though.
When you refresh your YW, do you take it out of the fridge? Mine has been out for the most part.
Has been refreshed and it's active it then lives in the fridge. If it's been within a few weeks or even a month or so i'll just dip into to it to build a yeast water starter with flour. If the yeast water has run low or it's been quite some time (more then a month) then i'll do a big refreshment like i've described. The refreshment will be done at room temperature until active then it'll go back in the fridge etc. That is just my own personal method which suits my schedule. I can't keep my starters always at room temperature otherwise they need far more TLC. My sourdough starter is similar... i'll dip into it to build a levain or sometimes only build enough to have a few grams extra which will be starter for next time. Be it a starter feed or levain build invariably at each stage it's a healthy feed. Otherwise it lives in the fridge.
Do you leave the fruits in it then? Sorry for so many questions. I have not found oodles of info out there on the subject.
I keep the fruit it was made with in the yeast water. When I refresh it I replace the fruit for fresh fruit.
For a nice recipe search on this site for Hamelman's Swiss Farmhouse Bread. Delicious!
All very good info. I’ll read all of these posts again and take notes! When I decide to start a new traditional sourdough starter, I’m sure I’ll be full of more questions. Something always goes awry.
Like I said before, the people who allegedly “love sourdough bread” had only eaten grocery store or restaurant versions. A REAL sourdough isn’t even remotely the same. I also think it can be an acquired taste so we can work on that since they seem to rely on me to provide bread. I dipped into the yeast the other day and didn’t enjoy it like I used to.
Out of curiosity how did you make your fruit yeast water?
I find sourdough delicious but it will take time and practice to control the taste and know how to aim for something you like. Ideally, because you do like yoghurt in your bread, you're looking to aim for that flavour profile in your sourdough breads. I do think Hamleman's recipes will suit you. Both for sourdough and for his excellent Swiss Farmhouse Bread using Fruit Yeast Water.
The raisin water recipe I followed was from “Drive me hungry” (random site I found) and the initial recipe is 250 g water, 100 g raisins, 4 g sugar. Shake twice a day, open and close top of jar each time. I baked on day 6 with the water and the leaven rose like crazy!
Thanks for the recipe suggestions. I’ll look them up.
I’m taking notes here. Curious how much starter you keep in the fridge? The recipe I was trying to follow called for leaving 100 grams in the fridge, feed that starter however much was needed for a recipe, then sticking 100 grams back in the fridge for next time. This was from Elaine Boddy’s Sourdough Whisperer book.
and feed it however much you need and then return 100g back to the fridge then what happens if you only need 50g? Do you feed that 100g with 25g water + 25g flour and then take off 50g to return it to the fridge?
I can see if you do that and leave it out all night for a bake the next day then it will be very tangy. You have 100g of old starter only being fed a small amount. It'll eat through it very quickly and what is already old starter will become even more tangy. Do that enough times and it'll suffer. Even if you want 100g and feed 100g starter with 50g water + 50g flour then over enough time it'll become more and more tangy. For a healthy starter you ideally don't want to feed it less than 1:1:1 which would mean feeding that 100g starter with 100g water + 100g flour.
Let's say you need 100g starter for a recipe. I'd build 120g and return 20g to the fridge. This way when you feed it again and you need another 100g it'll have a healthier feed. So build a little extra each time which becomes starter for next time.
Or at the beginning of the week you could build about 100g and say you bake two or three times a week then take a little off to build levain for the recipe. When it runs low then give it a good feed and repeat.
I'm thinking the method used did not translate well into recipes you were following and each time you kept back overly fermented starter which had a poor feeds. If every recipe you followed you needed at least 200g starter (at the very least) I can see this method working. But anything less then the method will have to change. So I don't see how someone can advise that's the only way it needs to be done and it'll work fine for everything.
I’ve been doing something not quite up to snuff.
I’m going to skip writing a mystery novel trying to figure out what what wrong and where. Instead I’d like a clear recipe of how to start a new successful starter and a tried and true maintenance method.
I’d like to build a healthy starter, then treat it right from then on. I LOVE the idea of a low maintenance method where there’s close to zero waste, and I don’t have to have it on my counter for the rest of my life, feeding and discarding…. That’s probably why I’m finding this YW experiment so enjoyable.
In a couple weeks, when I’m going to be around to get things going, I’ll start anew.
Developing a Liquid Levain Culture by Hamelman
Once you have your starter then his typical build will be...
Once mature he'll use the 225g levain build (as in this example) for the recipe and return the 20g excess to the fridge as starter for next time. This is an example of how he builds a levain for all his recipes and how only a little is kept back as starter. Each time the starter is fed it is a healthy feed and there's no discard (once the initial levain has been made).
This sounds like a ritual that I can work with! Thanks for sharing! More notes being written.
On Hamelman’s levain so I can do some studying. Thanks so much!
It climbed out of the container! Hamelman's "Bread" is an excellent book to have. From straight doughs to sourdough and other baked goods. His wheat sourdough recipes are comparable to the tang you find when adding yoghurt to a recipe. I don't know anyone who has tried his five-grain levain and not liked it. Many bakes on this website are Hamelman's recipes. He doesn't mind people sharing his recipes and sometimes pops in to comment. So you now have his building a levain method and a lot of recipes. It's very worth investing in his book.
My pleasure. It would be a shame to quit on sourdough so soon. It takes some getting used to at first but it becomes second nature soon enough.
You have no idea how susceptible I am to book suggestions! It will be purchased before the night is out! Also, I’ve “given up” several times on sourdough only to be starting over again the next day. The only thing stopping me this time is we are going to be out of town for a week 🤨.
Take a break for a week and come back refreshed ready to try again. Sometimes what is needed to solve a problem is to sleep on it. You wake up, or come back, with a fresh approach.
For the arrival of my book! I found a gently used version online last night ☺️
A good recipe to start with would be the Vermont Sourdough. Once you've perfected that it'll give you a good foundation for many of the other wheat sourdough breads.
I will absolutely try that. I find that I’m quite missing the texture that comes with sourdough, whether it be an artisan type or a sandwich loaf. There’s a little something missing with the WYW versions. They’re good though, in the meantime, and probably will even have their place in the future rotation.
I just read a little tidbit in this book about temperature in your refrigerator. He’s saying if your temp is below 46 for longer than 48 hours, your starter could become spoiled! I just checked and the recommended temp for my fridge is 37!
Interesting that your sourdough bakes came out too sour. I have not had the same experiences at all, except when I've used a very high percentage of whole wheat and extended fermentation and/or proofing out a long ways. In fact, I really don't feel my bakes are 'sourdough' except in the sense that they are naturally leavened. The dough formulas and methods that I use (along with routine sourdough maintenance) don't result in any strong sour notes at all, which is what my family prefers. I will be interested to hear what you think about your yogurt/sour cream additions.
One way to reduce sour notes in a sourdough starter is to introduce some sugar in the refreshes, which I know other people have posted about on TFL. I utilize this method when making soft rolls or other enriched doughs.
I agree with Abe that I love both my 'sourdough' starters (I keep two, one rye/WW and one AP) and my YW starter equally and just use them in slightly different ways. I don't plan on abandoning either but I know some folks prefer one or the other exclusively. The YW method has opened my eyes to a different way of making delicious bread. I find it all a very fascinating!
My book arrived today, perfect condition, though “used”. When we are back from vacation, I plan on jumping right in and developing the starter from this book.
Is there anything extra I should know before diving in? I’m so looking forward to sourdough bread again. I had one lonely loaf in the freezer and I’m quite enjoying that!
I found this video very helpful in understanding what my starter was telling me. More specifically, the chart he discusses in the 7 Stages of a Starter (6:40 in the video). Many of the books and instructional videos tell you to refresh when it "peaks", but don't necessarily do a very good job of describing what peak means or looks like. I was refreshing too early and overfeeding my starter when I first started.
Also, don't be too quick to rush into heavy feedings. Let your starter eat light meals and get good and strong before giving it bigger helpings.
Good luck!
Thank you! I’ll check that out.
I’ve been following the Sourdough Journey for quite a while and have learned so much from Tom C. The videos are very informative and thorough, and he’s helped me succeed with the Tartine recipe. It’s nice to sort of follow just a few people who seem to know what they’re talking about vs a dozen with totally opposite ideas.