High Fermentation/Proof Temp Needed w/ Rye Starter
I need to bulk ferment and proof at 85℉ in the B & T proofer to get anywhere near the timings in the B & T manual (Country Sourdough) or in Hamelman's Bread (Pain au Levain with Whole Wheat). The formulas have DDT's around 76℉ but I don't get the fermentation/proofing signs (volume, wobble, bubbles, poke test) for hours longer than the estimates in the formulas, unless I go to 85℉.
I use a 100% rye starter per "The Rye Baker". The pattern is this:
- Day 1 evening: Remove starter from fridge (the fridge is around 39℉ which seems to stop all starter activity) and leave at room temp 12 hrs
- Day 2 morning: Starter usually ~doubled, gets 1:10:10 feeding and into the proofer at 85℉
- Day 2 evening: Starter usually ~doubled; mix levain and place in proofer; starter back in the fridge
- Day 3 morning: Levain ~doubled; mix the dough and bulk ferment in the proofer with folds (3-4 hrs at 85 F) then pre-shape, shape, & proof; poke test to not quite fully proofed (1.5 - 2 hrs at 85 F) and into the fridge
- Day 3 evening: Set up dutch oven in the oven; set oven timer to preheat starting early on Day 4
- Day 4 morning: Load dough into dutch oven, mist, score, and bake
Day 1 is usually Wednesday and Saturday, so the starter gets fed twice a week, goes into the fridge, and comes out 24 hr in advance.
Does the difference between the DDT and my 85 F fermentation/proof to get the expected timings suggest a weak starter? Should I cut the feedings back to more like 1:5:5 to get the culture to peak sooner? In an old post here Hamelman himself says he feeds his rye starter daily at 1:1.6:2 and keeps it at room temp.
Thanks
I know others here have great experience with rye starters and hopefully they can help you out. I personally struggled with a rye starter and switched to white flour. I’ve had much more success.
With my rye starter, I would feed 1:5:5 and wait for it to double before re-feeding. In hind sight, I think I was feeding it too early. After I switched to white flour and started refreshing based more on time than ratio, I sawthis video. It helped me recognize where I am at with my white starter and thinking back, I think I was feeding my rye starter before peak even though it had “doubled”.
My symptom with the rye starter…. I would use it to make a levain for something like Vermont Sourdough. The levain would look active 12-14 hours later, but bulk would be very slow at 76 deg F. It was very sluggish and slow.
Hope this helps!
That sounds like exactly the same thing that mine does.
I'm trying to stick with rye because 1) I like the flavor and 2) I want to eventually bake rye breads
Thanks
I don’t think you need to move away from rye. As clevin’s mentioned below, make sure it’s peaking (or even past peak) before re feeding. Plus, I would drop back to 1:2:2 or maybe 1:3:3.
Generally it about doubles in 12 hrs at room temp but doesn't get much higher,if left 24 hrs. So I think that's a the peak
I think the 1:10:10 ratio might be a bit high. I usually go no higher than 1:5:5. I mean, that's a lot of material for the beasties to eat.
I would try feeding the starter a couple of times before making a levain. Pulling it, giving it a single feeding and then back in might be stressing the yeast.
When you bake, what's the final dough temp before bulk? I've made the error of adding cool water to room temp flour (and room temp in the winter is in the 60s max) and the dough temp is 65ish. That lengthens bulk quite a bit.
One annoying thing about a lot of recipes is that they'll say "bulk for X hours at room temp" without mentioning that their room temp definition is 76F... grrr. Anyway, heat (microwave is fine) the water so that the dough is in the mid-70s as bulk starts.
Basically, I think the starter and thus levain might not be as active as it could be and the dough temp might be low both of which would cause bulk to be longer.
PS: I've recently started doing the above with a one hour autolyse, i.e. I warm the water, mix with the flour thoroughly, then pop it into the proofer at 78F and let it autolyse for an hour... then proceed as normal.
I've been setting the proofer at 85 F and using pretty warm water for the levain and then the final dough. So I think the dough temp gets up to 85 F fairly quickly. The B & T manual and Hamelman's Bread state the DDT explicitly, generally 76 F.
I used to do 3 feedings before mixing the levain, but if I am feeding twice a week I get about the same result with a 12 hr warm-up and one feeding.
Maybe "The Rye Baker" 1:10:10 is good for the 1 - 2 feedings a week he suggests in the book. But maybe 1:5:5 would work better when baking twice a week.
Are the levain and the starter peaking at 12 hours? Or are they still on the way up? It shouldn't make a huge difference if it's just close to peak vs at peak, but if it's not close to peak, I'd figure it's not yet eaten all the flour and hence a given amount of levain isn't as active as it could be since it would contain fewer organisms.
I just fed my starter with some rye, so I'll watch it and post findings here. In your shoes, maybe try 2x a day feedings at something like 1:3:3 just to rev things up and see how the starter behaves.
After the starter wsrms up, it about doubles in 12 hrs and never gets much bigger, so I guess that's the peak.
It;s warming up now; maybe I'll try a 1:5:5 at in the proofer and see what happens.
Not a direct answer, but I was thinking the other day that making a dough is pretty much the same as making a levain.
Say you are making a dough with 200g levain and 1 kg flour in the main dough, then that's really the same as making a levain at a 1:5 ratio. So however long a 1:5 levain takes to rise, then a dough is likely to take the same time.
Two modifiers, though - usually we are looking for a 100% rise in a levain, whereas in a dough, only, say, 50%. But counteracting this, there is normally salt in a dough, but not in a levain.
Of course, there's not normally much gluten development in a levain, but I'm not sure this is relevant.
Regarding rye, I do have a rye and a wheat starter and I don't find much difference between them in activity.
Lance
When I started to try sourdough after making yeasted breads for a while, I started to think of the levain as the poolish (but with enough yeast for the final dough as well).
The CIA baking text treats levain as just a feeding; their bread formulas call for starter in percentages like levains, rather than starter in a levain.
It's roughly doubled (it started at the rubber band level) and it's been 6 hours at 75F.
If your starter is taking 12 hours to double it might be a bit weak or you might just want to adjust the ratio. This was a 1:4:4 feed.
Once it warms up, I'll try a 1:5:5 in the proofer and see how long it takes to double, and if it goes any bigger.
Thanks
experiment. After the 1:5:5 feeding, divide equally by weight into two equal sized containers, mark the levels and put one in the proofer and the other at 24° To 26°C room temperature. And let each peak at its own speed.
I will bet you the room temp rises higher and smells more yeasty than the warm proofed one. Compare consistency, texture, color, aromas and sourness types (taste it) also compare shape and size of gas pockets. Stir down after peak and take notes on the second rise to peak. Also note if peak stir down was hollow under the surface or if matrix was still supporting the peak from underneath.
Good suggestion. Lucky that I read it after the starter warmed up but before the feeding