March 19, 2022 - 6:07pm
Barley malt in The Rye Baker
I have a question about the use of barley malt in recipes in Stanley Ginsberg's The Rye Baker. Several recipes use malt powder but only two of them state whether the malt is diastatic or non-diastatic. The description of the East Berlin Malt Rye describes the use of dark barley malt (120° Lovibond) and the Belarusian Sweet Rye specifies diastatic malt powder.
However, the Minsk Rye and the Polish-Ukrainian Rye use “malt powder” in the final dough without specifically stating what kind (D or non-D). The quantities used are 2% in the Minsk Rye and 4.6% in the Polish-Ukrainian Rye. Should I be concerned to use these high quantities of diastatic malt in a rye bread, or should I play it safe by using non-diastatic malt?
Thanks!
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I don't have the book but I would think if it's not specified then it would be non diastolic. You can try deactivating your diastatic malt by heating it up.
Quantities asked for should be an indicator though. I wouldn't risk adding too much diastatic malt as it will result in a very gummy bread.
There are three recipes with "malt powder" in this book and all three ask for diastatic malt powder. Not barley malt.
On page 364 under "malt powder" ingredient Stanley lists two Belarussian and one Polish bread with that ingredient. The first recipe specifically states "diastatic malt powder" and the following two simply say "malt powder" and I know for sure that Minsk rye bread needs diastatic rye malt (powder) in its scald.
Milled diastatic malt in all three breads is actually rye, "white rye malt", finely milled, but you can substitute diastatic barley malt, diastatic malt powder or even diastatic syrup, if you want.
That said, Chleb Beskidzki, aka Polish-Ukranian in The Rye Baker, as it is done in Poland does not have any malt of any kind in it. It simply does not need it and it is not on the label. It has dark bread flour (type 850), white rye flour (type 720), sourdough culture and salt, some wheat bran and oat flakes for the crust.
Thank you, mariana for your response; but I am still confused.
On p. 364 in the index, he separates malted rye from malt powder. The Belarusian Rye uses red rye malt and diastatic malt powder in the rye and potato scalds. And on p. 41, under barley malt, he says "the recipe for Belarusian Rye illustrates the use of diastatic barley malt in predoughs." Are you saying that diastatic rye malt would be more appropriate?
The Minsk Rye in The Rye Baker only uses the malt powder in the the final dough and there is no scald. Should there be a scald for this bread?
His recipe for the Chleb Bezkidzki also uses buttermilk. Should that be left out like the malt powder? I just found this recipe from this site (link). The recipe uses light malt (or possibly honey). Wouldn't diastatic malt powder behave differently than honey in the dough?
I apologize for all the questions. My manufacturing chemist alter-ego wants to make sure that I use the correct raw materials. 😀
Thanks!
Alcophile, good morning, in bread baking, especially in European bread baking, only rye malt is used: two kinds of rye malt, pale and red. Both are milled into 'powder' before use.
There was a big discussion in the past whether barley malt was suitable for use in rye breads and it was concluded that it wasn't. Later on other diastatic agents were approved for use in bread baking: straight amylases, diastatic syrups (corn syrup+amylase), malt extracts, etc.
In the US, normally, a "diastatic malt powder" of some kind is used in baking which is barley malt based, it's a mix of wheat flour, diastatic barley malt and sugar. So, you can use that, although for authenticity, in European rye breads, if you can, use milled pale or red rye malt, as listed in their recipes.
- he says "the recipe for Belarusian Rye illustrates the use of diastatic barley malt in predoughs." Are you saying that diastatic rye malt would be more appropriate?
- yes. Traditionally, barley malts and barley malt extracts are not used in rye breads, at least not in Europe. Stanley mentions diastatic barley malt only because it is widely used in baking in the US and he assumes that it makes no difference whether to use it in wheat or rye baking.
- he separates malted rye from malt powder.
- Well, malted rye is grain, sprouted kernels, and malt powder is a milled product. In the US 'malt powder' is not even pure milled malt. It is a blend of several ingredients.
- The Minsk Rye in The Rye Baker only uses the malt powder in the the final dough and there is no scald. Should there be a scald for this bread?
- Yes and no. There are two different ways of making it: with or without scald. Without scald, it's a simple 2-step method: starter->dough. With scald, it's a flour step method: white rye starter, 2 different scalds (10% of all flour is scalded, fully digested by enzymes and then fermented), dough. I've never tried the method without scald because it requires stiff rye starter made with white rye flour.
Minsk Rye is white rye bread that tastes much better with scald and it has NO blackstrap molasses in its formula. It is WHITE so instead of dark molasses mentioned by Stanley which resulted from his mistake in translation of Russian word 'patoka' (meaning malt syrup, honey) use colorless malt syrup of some sort: rice malt syrup, sorghum malt syrup, pale wheat malt extract (LME) etc. or light colored honey.
- His recipe for the Chleb Bezkidzki also uses buttermilk. Should that be left out like the malt powder? I just found this recipe from this site (link). The recipe uses light malt (or possibly honey). Wouldn't diastatic malt powder behave differently than honey in the dough?
- The recipe that you linked is probably the recipe that Stanley copied for his book. It mentions maślanka which is buttermilk, so use buttermilk, liquid (acidified, cultured milk) or dry buttermilk powder (non-acidified). US buttermilk powder will give you more authentic results.
It also uses "active" (diastatically active) słód jasny - milled pale rye malt (diastatic malt powder).
Sure, diastatic malt powder (milled pale rye malt) works differently.
Honey is sweetening dough and flavoring it with honey aroma and it is digested by the yeasts in the dough. It is usually part of the recipe, just like butter or eggs. It's a dough improver. It improves fermentation and dough volume.
Diastatic malt will attack starches and protein molecules in dough and soften bread crumb, it helps bread stay fresh longer, improves color and aroma of bread crust, it's a bread improver, it makes better bread, but it doesn't sweeten bread. Normally, diastatic malt is not part of the bread recipe, unless it is a recipe for a bread with scald, it is part of flour, or is added by the baker to improve flour or to improve bread.
Honey or straight table sugar (sucrose) are poor substitutes for diastatic malt, but could be used if none is available.
best wishes,
m.
mariana, thank you for your patience with all my questions.
Your answers always contain a wealth of information and are greatly appreciated.
inspired by Martadella's post -- https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70091/latgalian-rye -- I went to my local brewing supply store to buy pale rye malt and was told that, basically, all pale malts, haviing been sprouted and then dried at low-temperature, are diastatic, while all dark malts, because they have been roasted, are non-diastatic.
If this is true, it seems a pretty simple rule of thumb.
Rob
Though I'm jumping in long after this thread was started, I thought you might be interested to know that I asked Stanley Ginsberg this exact question (on The Rye Baker Fb page) and he said the generic "malt powder" in all three recipes is barley malt.
As alcophile already deduced, in the Belarusian Sweet Rye recipe it is diastatic, which makes sense, as it is added at the beginning of the recipe, when "you want to encourage the conversion of starches into sugars."
In the Minsk Rye and the Polish-Ukrainian Rye, it is non-diastatic, as it is added at the end, when you do not want to risk "starch attack."
I'm told there are many local formulas for these regional ryes, so others are free to be adamant about their versions. I find that barley gives better results than the guesstimates and substitutions I made previously. The note on p. 146, in the East Berlin Malt Rye recipe, was also quite helpful to me, and I've made this recipe very successfully with roasted barley flour, as SG suggests. (A toasted purple barley imparts the desired dark chocolate-coffee notes.)