March 16, 2022 - 8:07am
Why let dough rise before shaping?
Why is sourdough left to rise before shaping, whereas yeasted breads typically are "punched down", shaped and then left to rise. Why don't we apply the same technique for sourdough? Wouldn't this lead to a more open crumb, cause you don't have to be as careful when shaping?
Regards, Theo_tec9.
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What you describe as "left to rise" I think would more accurately be described as a rest period. It is beneficial to allow the gluten to relax between the preshape and the final shaping. I think this rest period will benefit both commercial yeasted and naturally leavened loaves of bread equally.
Kind regards,
Will F.
What i mean is the rise after final shaping. For sourdough, usually there is no "final rise", but instead just a retard in the fridge, whereas with yeasted breads, it is risen, punched down, shaped, and then risen again.
And that is what i mean by my question. Why is sourdough risen before shaping (bulk fermentation), instead of just shapen directly after a couple stretch and folds and then given a final rise/proof.
Well, Theo, I see where you are becoming confused. Cold retard/"proof" is just a slowed-down rise (proof) We chill the dough to slow down, not stop the fermintation. This is done to build complex flavors in the bread. Cold ferment/retarded ferment is just one method. Naturally, leavened can also be proven at room temperature. To make a long story short, regardless of the type of bacteria we use, ie, natural or commercial most any method can be employed. So feel free to try out what you feel is the best modus operandi! Happy baking!
Kind regards,
Will F.
Well, Theo, I see where you are becoming confused. Cold retard/"proof" is just a slowed-down rise (proof) We chill the dough to slow down, not stop the fermintation. This is done to build complex flavors in the bread. Cold ferment/retarded ferment is just one method. Naturally, leavened can also be proven at room temperature. To make a long story short, regardless of the type of bacteria we use, ie, natural or commercial most any method can be employed. So feel free to try out what you feel is the best modus operandi! Happy baking!
Kind regards,
Will F.
I think i understand why i am confused. You say that the final proof/retard is just a slowed down fermentation and is not mean to be completely stopped, whereas others i have asked say that the fridge should be as cold as possible for it not to grow further. I think technique varies from person to person and how it fit into their schedule, aswell as what result they want. (crumb, taste etc.)
Will is right on the money for me, as regardless of you use a commercial yeast or a natural yeast, the proofing principle is the same whether it is proofed at room ambient or in the fridge, as a dough has to ripe to a certain point before being baked. Obviously, using a commercial yeast would usually ferment faster than a SD starter would.
Didn't you ask a similar question last week and said you would eliminate bulk fermentation and go directly into the fridge and promise to show us the results?
I am sorry. I have been asking the same questions several times on Reddit aswell, because i am just so desperate to find an answer, but i never feel like i get a proper one that fully explains it.
And that image you are talking about, honestly i kind of forgot about it. I don't have a picture of it, but if you are interested all i can say is that it was fine, maybe just a bit dense. That could be caused by other factors though (it was lower hydration, and i could have proofed it more i suppose).
There is no need to say sorry as we are all learners here. Again, you could call the proofing process however you want, be it in bulk, room, cold retard, whatever, the bottom line is a dough needs to ripe to a certain point before it is ready to bake, and if you can read that in a dough then you are on top of the world with bread making. Thanks.
There's a lot of gaps in my understanding and I am still (and will always be) very much a learner but I believe punching down will give you a very even distribution of small alveoli, and what we're talking of as "proof" or "final ferment" or what have you, more gently treated with folds and shaping, allows for a more open, uneven distribution. I don't think it matters whether it's pure cultured yeast or sourdough.
My mom taught me to bake as a kid, but it was all direct method, with punchdowns (oh that yeasty smell of home white bread!), and that's what we get - home white sandwich bread. Others know more, I'll defer to them.
Edit: Crossed in the mail with Gina.
Yep. There is no necessary correlation. I do commercial-yeasted ciabatta that is not punched down at all, and sourdough is a glorious universe of many different breads and methods.
The difference, I guess, is that with sourdough you have two populations of microorganisms to worry about, the natural yeast and the various lactobacilli, which interact and behave differently at different temperatures. So sourdough recipes are a lot more careful about timings and temperatures.
Hi Theodough,
Great handle! What you are describing as THE sourdough process is just one specific process, probably the Tartine method or something like it. There are other methods out there, and some of them include punching the dough down after the first rise and before shaping, then doing a full second rise at room temp or above. There are so many ways to make sourdough. But to answer what I think is your real question, no, punching it down doesn't make for a more open crumb. The point of shaping without punching down is to preserve the bubbles that are already formed to get a more open crumb. Punching down collapses all the bubbles in the dough so the rise has to essentially start over. This leads to a more even crumb with no really large bubbles. It is easier to shape a punched dough, but if you want the giant holes/open crumb you have to keep those bubbles growing throughout the process.
As for a ferment without the shaping step in the middle, I developed a few methods for gluten-free bread (the only bread I make) that didn't shape in the middle of the process, as this doesn't tend to work for GF bread. What I did was let it rise continuously, put it in the freezer for about 20 minutes to firm up, and shaped right before I baked. It wasn't perfect, but I got big holes. My conclusion? I enjoy the flavor of a lower-hydration, denser, more flavorful bread, but getting that giant oven spring and the huge holes was thrilling, especially since I didn't think it was possible for GF.
If this response doesn't speak to your real meaning, please tell us what your goal is for the bread you are making and perhaps someone can direct you to a method that can achieve it.
Gina
This all makes perfectly sense, and was what i thought until i saw a post from Trevor. He talked about bubbles formed during bulk fermentation are what gives structure to the loaf. This also makes sense. The burger buns i made lately, where i pressed them flat, flattened out further and merged together.
I also read on reddit that the reason the bubbles are more important, is because it takes time for them to reestablish when deflated, so the bread has time to lose tension before all the gas is back. Whereas with yeasted bread, they form quickly again to support the structure and tension. This is just my theory though :)
Theodor
If I’m mixing bread dough in the morning ( having fermented a levain overnight, I’ll bulk ferment about 3 hrs. Then I shape, with small pin head bubbles and the odd blister showing but not a big soft billowy dough. This tensions the dough up one last time, before it gets soft and sloppy, but while some ruse has happened. It wouldn’t at all be doubled.. The proof or final rise goes about another 4-6 hrs. This is the sequence and stage of rise suggested to me by a professional baking instructor, whose specialty is sourdough. If I’m bulk and shaping at night, then I’ll retard, and depending on a range of factors I might bake straight out of the fridge or warm for 2 or even 3 hours - but it will always depend on observation (size, poke test). It will always double after shaping (for me), sometimes maybe a bit more.
this is by no means better than anyone else’s method, but it’s what I find normal - point being that with or without the fridge there is always a significant rise after scaling (I do 4 loaf batches) and shaping.
Fridge retard might be a popular domestic method for a small number of loaves, but -IMO - by no means would it be considered the ‘standard’ way to make sourdough. The commercial/ semi commercial SD bakers I’ve talked to don’t use it, anyway.