March 5, 2022 - 9:06am
My bread log
I have once again decided to document my bakes. I think I did not do this correctly a few moments ago, so here is a link to my last entry where I added my latest bake and explain what I did. https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57785/multigrain-loaf-la-dmsnyder
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The formula did not mention steam; I used my usual ineffective steam pan on the bottom rack. Covering the loaf (an upside-down pot/dutch oven on top of the stone? Preheated?) probably helped the oven spring.
I wonder if an upright dutch oven with a thick bottom, preheated, does pretty much what the stone does.
In my opinion, this bread was a quasi failure for me. I will not blame the recipe. It may be that my starter was not robust enough. However, I think the hydration was way too low for it to have a decent chance for it to expand. Now I am glad that I did not make two loaves!
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For any bread formula, it's always possible that the flour you are using needs more or less hydration that the flour that the author used. One guy with a sourdough YouTube channel (maybe the German or the Danish guy) said that when he gets a new flour, he mixes up little bowls of flour and water at different hydrations from 60 - 90% and leaves them overnight. The next day he looks at the results and decides which one has the texture and strength he wants, typically the highest hydration that remains extensible without tearing.
If you make substitutions in a formula, like swapping in bread flour instead of AP, as I like to do to help build strength, you can expect to need higher hydration to get the texture in the formula.
BTW, everyone who has tried my last batch of this says that it's really dense. Maybe it helps to slice it very thin and toast it.
It does have a nice sweetness from the rye.
Louis- I agree that each flour may require a different amount of water. I did follow the formula, however, as directed, but, of course, different all purpose flours differ in protein and therefore hydration ability. I used KA AP flour which is higher in protein than other AP flours. All of this said, I just had an open face sandwich for lunch just now with this bread lightly toasted and gouda with hatch chilis and I really enjoyed it!
That sandwich sounds delicious. We sometimes get fresh Hatch chiles in San Diego; I have a bunch of chile powder from hatch.
Many of the formulas in "The Rye Baker" say that a particular bread is good with some kinds of cheeses or cold cuts. I can't think of anything that doesn't go well on rye - I eat a lot of smoked or pickled fish, various cheeses, sliced veg and veg spreads on various rye breads.
The cheese was actually a Trader Joe’s buy. We both love spicy and since you do as well, I recommend it.
I had forgotten to report on this bread- Hamelman 3rd edition p. 273. Since I forgot to report on this when I made it, I can’t write too much about it other that I love this formula and will make it again.
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I liked this one too Caryn! The word I kept coming too was "sophisticated". My blog notes: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/72664/salzburger-weizenkeimbrot
Does the glaze add any flavor or is just for the shine? (I omitted it, perhaps you did too?)
Yes, I love the flavor of this bread. The coriander flavor really comes through. As for the glaze, I don’t think that it really did add anything. I like your idea about baking it with dried fruits. I think it would work really well. Have you tried it yet? I will plan on making it soon.
No I haven’t tried the fruit yet (thinking: 9% each of apricots , prunes, raisins.). I just baked this for the first time a week or so ago. (Btw Where did you see I was going to add fruit?). Could you taste the wheat germ?
The other change is I’m going to try to raise the temperature in building the initial sauerteig. Hamelman says 83F. But as I’m reading German sites, I’m suspecting the bread uses the Berlin Brief Sour (Berliner kurzsauer) method, which is 4 hours at 95F. As long as it’s a mild sour I think the bread will work.
Jkandell- You mentioned on August 7 on this blog that you thought you might add fruit to this bread like you had done with the Litovsky bread.
it sounds like you know more about the nuances of sourdough than I have paid attention to. Mostly, I blindly follow the recipe creator’s directions, but I have come to realize that sometimes that is not the best approach. I have been reading The Bread Code book and he explains a lot about the sourdough process works. For the most part, he suggests, it doesn’t really make sense to use the timings and temperature in a recipe, but to measure how much the dough is rising or to measure the ph. I highly suggest that you read his book- there is a link to his book on his YouTube channel.
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I just baked this today and am most pleased. I was inspired by fellow Fresh Loafer,Louis Cohen https://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/louiscohen who made this formula recently and emailed me about it. I followed his suggestions and used whole wheat for the wheat sponge and added about 32g of extra water to compensate for it. In addition, I baked it as a loaf shape rather than a boule, because I prefer that shape for slicing. I baked it in my Challenger pan, preheating to 475°F, turning it down to 460° after putting the dough into the pan, and then I uncovered the loaf after 15 minutes, turning down the temperature further to 445° for about 20 minutes when the bread temp was 210°. I had done the two folds and allowed the dough to ferment for a total of 2.5 hours at 78°. The final proof after shaping took one hour.
The flavor is complex and delicious!
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The reason I decided to try this bread is that it is not a sourdough formula, using just instant yeast and I wanted to test out my yeast which has literally been in my freezer for years! I make rolls for Thanksgiving that are just instant yeast driven, and I didn’t want a yeast failure on Thanksgiving.
I chose this formula because I remembered that I also had some spelt flour in my freezer, and this looked like an interesting recipe to try. I scaled the recipe to 1K because I didn’t have enough spelt to make one tenth of the metric measurements. I had wanted to bake in loaf pans, but realized the dough was too much for one pan and not enough for two pans. Next time I will figure out how much dough I will need to fill two pans when I get some more spelt. I ended up proofing it in a banneton and baking it on a preheated baking stone. I was a bit worried that it might burn if I baked it in the Challenger pan because of the honey in the formula.
So far the yeast seems to be working just fine. It looks like I am getting terrific oven spring. I am baking the loaf right now. I will follow this with pictures.
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The result was delicious. I am pleased with the flavor of the spelt and the texture is that of a nice sandwich bread.
Since my goal today is to make bread quickly, I am making this bread again. This time two loaves and the plan is to bake in two loaf pans.
I just baked this bread using loaf pans, scaling the recipe to 1K. I was a bit worried that the dough might stick to my banneton and didn’t want to risk it. I also thought it might be too much dough for the 9 X 5” pan and baked about 200g in a mini pan; however, after baking, I realized that the dough would have fit in the 9 X 5 pan.
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I just baked this rye bread. It is 50% whole rye and 50% medium. I am amazed how flavorful it is with so few ingredients: rye flour, starter, salt and water. As usual, I cheated and cut into if a bit short of the 24 hours “required” wait time! I scaled the recipe down to 1K because I was worried that it would not work well for me, and I would rather have a small failure rather than a big one. It is not an airy bread by any means, but it has a nice texture and rose nicely for a whole grain bread.
I baked it on a stone instead of my usual method of using my Challenger pan, mostly because it is a bit easier for me than handling the heavy cast-iron pan.
i am intrigued with the variation of this bread which follows this formula in the book: Rye Sticks with dried fruits and chocolate. I may have to try it sometime.
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You still get better oven spring and more open crumb than I do. I fed my start this morning; I'll try this starting tonight with my current oven configuration & procedure (stones above and below, steam pan on the bottom rack, water spritz on the loaf just before baking and at 5 mins into the bake).
I may add some onions.
I am not sure if I do get more oven spring than you do, but maybe my mixed wheat starter contributes more to the rise than your rye starter. I usually use a starter that is about 1/3 whole wheat and 2/3 bread flour. Maybe it is more potent than one that is all rye. I usually feed a small amount of starter twice the day before the bake using the ratio of 1:2:2 during the day for about 8 or 9 hours and then using a small amount of that starter, I feed it using a ratio of 1:4:4 overnight for about 12 to 14 hours. Or maybe it is the double feeding that strengthens it. Or it is completely random! I have certainly had my share of bricks.
Did you score that loaf or is that a natural schuster laib crack?
My most common schedule is:
A multiple stage sourdough or retarded fermentation will push the bake to Day 3 AM.
That was a natural crack as described by Hamelman. I thought that was interesting the way it formed by itself. I am not sure I have heard that term before, “shuster laib.”
My feeding schedule is very similar, but I use more starter as compared to flour and water than you do.
Somewhere in the book, Hamelman explains that a bread baked seams-up is called in German a Schuster Laib - cobbler's loaf. Possibly an inexperienced apprentice put the loaves in the oven upside down, so the baker called him a cobbler.
A person who slips and falls on a ship or boat deck is derisively called "butcher".
I followed Hamelman’s instructions without any changes, except for baking as a long loaf rather than a miche. I assumed that whole buckwheat called for in the recipe was the same as kasha. If I am wrong, it doesn’t matter because the bread worked very well.
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I just baked pumpernickel bagels this morning. I think they are the best rendition of bagels to date. I really think the recipe made bagels indistinguishable from the very good bagel bakeries around here. I was not sure the recipe would work because the dough seemed overly dry, but in the end they worked well. The recipe is from a book by Cathy Barrow- Bagels, Schmears, and a Nice Piece of Fish. I have made bagels before, but I don’t think quite as good as these turned out. The recipe is one third pumpernickel flour. I used whole dark rye for it.
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Do those look great! I never had great success with home-made bagels; I decided if there's a bakery nearby that's at least mediocre, that's easier. I used to be a regular at the local Breugger's, ordering in Spanish (there doesn't seem to be a widely-agreed Spanish word for "poppy seed").
But after my homebaked rye bread became edible, it was as good or better as a base for smoked fish/fish spreads; I haven't been back to the bagel shop.
Here is why homemade bagels are worthwhile: While it is true that hearty rye breads are great with lox and other smoked toppings, bagels offer a really satisfying chew that probably is usually lacking with a whole grain loaf. And if you go to a bagel place from time to time I would be surprised if you will find a selection with whole grain rye. Further, I as able to customize the bagels to my liking, mating a variation on the “everything” mix where I added my own selection of seeds and onion and omitted the salt.
I generally don't have a bagel-like chew on my rye breads, but they aren't wonderbread either. And, if the rye/whole grain percentage is pretty high (especially with a whole grain soaker), the chew of a thick slice isn't that far off a bagel.
I do love hearty rye breads, but bagels are really fun to make for me. Seeing a dense bread dough transform itself into the lighter result after boiling is very gratifying!. Besides the really good bagel places around here charge $13.50 for a half dozen, and I thought mine were at least as good. Plus I could make an “everything “ type bagel without the salt in the topping.
I am sure that your bagels are better than those in most bakeries, let alone the industrial ones in supermarkets.
Mine typically came out pretty ugly.
I think it might be a function of the recipe and practice shaping them how the bagels turn out. Louis, I am happy to share the recipe that I used, if you like.
Yesterday I made three pizzas using my Breville Pizzaiolo oven. I had some previous almost failures where my toppings leaked onto the stone, making a mess. At least the resulting pizza had been mostly edible! 😀. So this time I was a bit more cautious and made three pies using the basic recipe for the Neapolitan dough, substituting whole wheat flour for 20% of the flour called for. For the topping where I topped it with crumbled uncooked turkey sausage, I used the “New York” setting because the setting cooks the pizza in about 7 minutes as compared to the Neapolitan style that cooks the pizza in 2 to three minutes. The other two were baked using the Neapolitan setting. I topped the first pizza with sauce, crumbled turkey sausage, fresh mozzarella , sautéed sliced portobello mushrooms, and sliced tomatoes the second one with sauce, fresh mozzarella, mushrooms and basil, and the third one with sauce, fontina cheese, mushrooms, ricotta cheese and basil.
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They sound and look delicious. I had been having trouble stretching my sourdough discard dough, so I have not made pizza in a while. I'm thinking of trying a thick crust focaccia like style (I am sure this has an Italian name that isn't "pizza") baked in a pan at a home oven temp.
I bet the 2 minute Napoli setting would be great with ingredients like sausage pre-cooked partway in a frying pan.
No matter what you call it, pan pizza is a great option. You might want to try Detroit style- I love it. You just push the dough into the pan, oiled well, of course.
i know I could have precooked the sausage first, but I thought maybe that cooking it slower would keep more of the flavorful fat on the pizza. However, I may try pre-cooking it next time because the Neapolitan setting is a bit better for the crust’s outcome.
Yes, it was sooo good, and I am happy that we have leftovers!
I used the last of the dough in the refrigerator tonight for one more pizza.
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I just made this bread, a formula I had yet to try. What was different about it was that the overnight levain was more than half of the final dough. The yeast was optional and since I used whole rye in place of the medium rye, I used it, thinking that the yeast might help prevent the dough from being too dense. Hamelman did, however, suggest that whole rye could replace the medium in the recipe. Maybe next time I will omit the yeast, especially if I am making only one loaf, in case the results are subpar.
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I baked these loaves on a stone this time (instead of in a pot) because I wanted to bake two at once, following Hamelman’s baking instructions.
They look great. Is the formula in "Bread" 2nd or 3rd edition?
3rd edition. If I don’t specify, it probably means it is from the third edition. Speaking of which, I discovered that the binding is starting to come apart on that book, and it is annoying because the book is probably less than 3 years old. A long time ago I had a similar problem with Hamelman’s first book and the publisher (Wiley) sent me a replacement. This time I also contacted them and I was told they won’t do anything because the book is older than 3 months and was not purchased directly from them!
I have the same issue with the 2nd Ed hardcopy. I have the 3rd Ed online only, which works fine. I'll try this for my next rye when I get home .
I will use the yeast because I bought a container of SAF instant yeast just before I got my culture going and I reduced my yeast usage a lot.
I thought I would now mention that I have been using yeast which expired in 2020! I keep yeast in the freezer and contrary to popular belief, it lasts a very long time there. I have used it whenever I am leavening a bread that is not wholly sourdough leavened or for non-sourdough loaves and they seem to work just fine. I am curious, however, whether the loaves would be even loftier if I bought some new yeast.
I keep mine in the freezer and it seems to work fine.
I think you could get more oomph by spiking a sourdough with yeast. That's not unusual with rye formulas.
I think I am learning how to make good pizza. I think key is when stretching the dough to be careful that the center does not get thin. I find, for me, I get the best result by just stretching the circumference and not picking the dough up. It may take a little longer, but resulted in an even round.
The Doug formula that I used:
Neapolitan Pizza Dough
Prep 30 minutes + 1 hour resting + 6 hours, or up to 4 days proofing Cook 2 minutes per pizza
Makes 4 pizzas
456g bread flour
114g whole wheat flour
1 teaspoon instant yeast
4 teaspoons kosher salt
398g cold tap water
Flour and semolina mix (half/half), for shaping the dough
1. Add flour, yeast and salt to bench mixer. Stir to combine.
2. Add the water and knead on low speed until the dough is smooth and elastic, 5-6 minutes.
3. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and let dough rise in a warm, draft-free place until doubled in volume, 45-60 minutes.
4. Divide the dough into 4 x 8 once (240g) pieces and shape into balls. Lightly dust balls with semolina/flour mixture and put in individual containers that you have put in some olive oil and cover. Refrigerate for at least 6 hours or up to 4 days.
The sauce was a Quick Tomato Sauce for Pizza from America’s Test Kitchen, that uses a 28 oz. can of crushed tomatoes, 1 tablespoon of olive oil, and 2 cloves of garlic, minced. (Cook garlic in oil briefly, add tomatoes and simmer until slightly thickened, 10 to 15 minutes) I did not add any salt because after tasting the tomatoes right out of the can, they seemed salty enough. I used first field tomatoes that I am able to get at Trader Joe’s. They are really great for pizza sauce. I could easily have just used it straight out of the can. I added a pinch of red pepper flake.
I made 4 pizzas, two were topped with sauce, fresh mozzarella, mushrooms (that I previously had sautéed), fresh tomatoes and ricotta cheese and the other two with sauce, fontina cheese, sautéed broccoli rabe, farmer’s market spinach-feta turkey sausage that I had cooked out of the casings (one sausage for each pizza) and ricotta cheese as well. I love Trader Joe’s ricotta cheese and I used it right out of the carton.
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Lovely looking pizzas (pizze?).
I get what you write about the stretching. I am also finding my way to some similar conclusions.
I am wondering what the baking arrangements/techniques you use are.
Thanks for your compliment! I now bake my pizza in a Breville pizza oven, using parchment rounds (12”) to avoid the dough sticking to the peel. I have to take the parchment off of the pizza within about 30 seconds or it will completely burn. The oven works really well, but it was a definite splurge.
... I could get a similar result in my home oven :-/
Have to keep on experimenting.
Those pizzas look great.
Here's a good video on stretching from Ooni Ooni manager demonstrates stretching techniques. I think these are all fine for white flour doughs. Stretching is trickier with high whole grains. Since I tried to make pizza with sourdough discard dough 100% Whole Grain Pizza Dough @75% Hydration with Sourdough Discard I've had a lot of difficulty stretching for a Neapolitan style pie. I think I'm going to try the formula with a thick crust in a pan.
Louis- I just watched the video. It was fantastic! I will try his method the next time I make pizza just for us. I like to be o really cautious when I have guests!
I would also guess that there might be a limit as to how much whole grain flour you could include to get the right texture. I substituted 20% of the bread flour with whole wheat, more for flavor than anything else. I really didn’t detect the difference. I think it would be fun to see what the effect of using whole grain polenta for 20% of the flour and create a Mexican themed pizza with a chili-spiked sauce.
I think you can get a pretty high whole grain pizza crust to work fine for a Neapolitan-like pizza; a retarded fermentation seems to help. But using sourdough discard for it is a step too far for me; I just can't stretch it well.
For my recent birthday, my daughter bought me a gift certificate to Janie’s Mill. So, after looking at the many recipes on their site, I ordered a variety of flours, so I could try some of them. The first bread recipe that I tried was for whole grain bialys: https://www.janiesmill.com/blogs/recipes/hearty-bialys-from-maritime-bread-co, and except that I need to learn how to create the proper depression for the filling, I thought they came out really well. I followed the recipe fairly closely, shaping the dough into balls and giving them an overnight rise in the refrigerator. I halved the recipe, but made 8 instead of 6, so they would be a little smaller. I don’t know if it was the flour that I got from Janie’s or if my starter was particularly robust, but I was pleased with the rise and crumb of these, considering they are all whole grain and sourdough risen. I did feed my starter twice before making the recipe, but mostly because I have a tendency to neglect my starter when I have enough bread in the house!
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Your bialys have a particularly great crumb
I made the statutory dozen Janie's Mill 100% whole grain bialys photos proofed and baked on a crowded 11" x 17" sheet pan. I added a little more water than the formula called for in order to fully hydrate the dough during the mix, so they may have been slightly larger than regulation.
When I brought them out of the fridge to bake, there was no room on the sheet pan to flatten them, so I just used the little Dutch boy technique and stuck my thumb into each one, moving it just a bit to get a slightly larger depression.
I still have no idea why the tops of mine whitened in the oven. Maybe the tops dried out a bit in the fridge?
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