Stretch/ fold about 6 or 7 times at even intervals
Preshape as a boule
Bench rest 20 mins
Shaping
Cold retard overnight in fridge
Bake 230 deg celsius for 45 mins
My observations are that an initially strong, elastic dough became stickier over time (although not crazy sticky as hydration wasn't high) - by the end of bulk it looked ready to go - bubbles on the surface, domed, bubbles on the sides, 90% rise in volume, smells and tastes a little acid. But I noticed it wasn't coming away from the sides of the bowl - it was still sticking.
To preshape I lightly flour surface, flop dough onto it, envelope fold in on itself, flip, then rotate/tighten with bench scraper
By this time it's obvious it doesn't set up properly and won't hold its shape.
Once baked it was clear I'd underproved - it had a pyramid shape with dense crumb at the bottom and tunnels at the top. I don't think it was overproved because at the end the window pane was looking really good - the gluten didn't seem to have deteriorated from an overly-acid environment. And it wasn't soupy, just puffy and flaccid. But I might be wrong!
I've tried other loaves at high bulk temperatures (á la Tartine for example) and have always had the same problem with sticky dough that won't hold its shape. Also I've tried different levels of hydration, getting lower each time. This time the dough was much easier to handle and I had high hopes - until it flopped lifelessly onto the bench!
My (novice) instinct is maybe the problem is the starter wasn't used early enough, or maybe needs to be stronger. Maybe I'm also manipulating it incorrectly in the early stages - I'm doing the usual stretch and fold in the bowl, but also taking it out and just holding it in my two hands, letting it extend, then folding back on itself, repeatedly, looking for smooth elasticity.
For 65% hydration, that dough has splurged out a long way. Coupled with the stickiness you observe, it sounds like you may have let it ferment too long. Should make a tasty loaf though. I don't think that could be down solely to technique.
It really sounds over fermented. At 21ºC and fermentation for 12 hours with 90% rise the dough would be very acidic activating the proteolytic enzymes breaking down your gluten. This is why it starts to get more sticky rather than less sticky. Try aiming for 30-40% rise then shaping and a short proof or cold retard then baking.
Thanks for all the feedback ... overproofed seems to be the consensus... and yet when I baked it my observation was it was pyramid shaped (it had droopy shoulders) and the crumb was dense and lacking bubbles, but with tunnelling at the top... which I had read were indications of under-proofing!
Also the window pane seemed really good before I stopped bulk - it wasn't tearing so I took that as a sign that the acid hadn't started breaking down the gluten.
I've had a starter going now for a couple of months. it lives in the fridge and when I'm planning to bake I take out a little in the evening and make up a leaven - in this case using 1 part starter, 2 parts flour (of which 75% strong bread flour, 25% dark rye), and 2 parts water. I had chilled the water in the fridge because I wanted to extend the fermentation overnight. So at 11pm it went into a warm cupboard (c. 22 deg. celsius) and I got it out at 7am the next day. At that point it had more than doubled and was looking frothy and vigorous. It still smelt and tasted floury and not completely acidic, so it seemed to be good to go.
I do wonder if the starter is too acidic though and maybe it was causing the dough to over-ferment. In future I'm going to feed it in the morning as well and try to get it at its peak after about 4 hours. I'm also trying to generally strengthen the starter with a better feeding regime.
Does that shed any light on my floppy dough problem?
Seeing crumb photos along with photos of the loaf is better if you’re trying to get help on your bread. Detailed description of how you maintain your starter, how many days since last feed it was since refrigerated and your recipe are all helpful.
The sloping shoulders is very typical of overfermented, the peak in the center not always.
I keep my starter in the fridge as well. I feed it whole rye, allow it to peak which is usually 3-4x rise then place it in the fridge. As long as it is less than 1 week since last fed, I take it out to build and levain without refreshing it. If you leave your starter in the fridge for much much longer then yes it will get quite acidic. If you then use a large innoculation of starter in your levain and then you allow your levain to over ferment then yes you can transfer excess acid into your dough so it may show signs of gluten breakdown sooner than you would expect.
Big bubbles at the top of the loaf are a sign of over-proofing (the dough can no longer hold smaller bubbles in). I am certainly not an expert sourdough baker but I am quite experienced at making over-proofed loaves...
With sourdough, over-proofing is generally about the lactic acid bacteria doing too much, making the dough too acidic, which spoils the proteins (as Benito explained^). Under-proofing is about the yeasts not doing enough, so too few bubbles form to expand during baking, meaning the ones you do get become big, with dense bread in between. I have indeed baked the loaves which appeared to be both at once. I assumed this was because the lactic acid bacteria/yeast balance in my starter was out of whack.
Suspect the tunnelling at the top is from a weak/degraded dough tearing internally when turned out. If you ever get the skin sticking as you invert - pretty much guarantee a big hole…
or dutch oven and bake it out. A bit more detail would be helpful.
My process / recipe:
My observations are that an initially strong, elastic dough became stickier over time (although not crazy sticky as hydration wasn't high) - by the end of bulk it looked ready to go - bubbles on the surface, domed, bubbles on the sides, 90% rise in volume, smells and tastes a little acid. But I noticed it wasn't coming away from the sides of the bowl - it was still sticking.
To preshape I lightly flour surface, flop dough onto it, envelope fold in on itself, flip, then rotate/tighten with bench scraper
By this time it's obvious it doesn't set up properly and won't hold its shape.
Once baked it was clear I'd underproved - it had a pyramid shape with dense crumb at the bottom and tunnels at the top. I don't think it was overproved because at the end the window pane was looking really good - the gluten didn't seem to have deteriorated from an overly-acid environment. And it wasn't soupy, just puffy and flaccid. But I might be wrong!
I've tried other loaves at high bulk temperatures (á la Tartine for example) and have always had the same problem with sticky dough that won't hold its shape. Also I've tried different levels of hydration, getting lower each time. This time the dough was much easier to handle and I had high hopes - until it flopped lifelessly onto the bench!
My (novice) instinct is maybe the problem is the starter wasn't used early enough, or maybe needs to be stronger. Maybe I'm also manipulating it incorrectly in the early stages - I'm doing the usual stretch and fold in the bowl, but also taking it out and just holding it in my two hands, letting it extend, then folding back on itself, repeatedly, looking for smooth elasticity.
Have I missed any critical details?
Grateful for your advice!
I do use a dutch oven and it will stop a soft dough spreading everywhere, but I'd really like to get dough correct before it gets to baking it
For 65% hydration, that dough has splurged out a long way. Coupled with the stickiness you observe, it sounds like you may have let it ferment too long. Should make a tasty loaf though. I don't think that could be down solely to technique.
It really sounds over fermented. At 21ºC and fermentation for 12 hours with 90% rise the dough would be very acidic activating the proteolytic enzymes breaking down your gluten. This is why it starts to get more sticky rather than less sticky. Try aiming for 30-40% rise then shaping and a short proof or cold retard then baking.
Benny
20% starter bulk fermented for 12 hours even at 21°C is going to over ferment.
Thanks for all the feedback ... overproofed seems to be the consensus... and yet when I baked it my observation was it was pyramid shaped (it had droopy shoulders) and the crumb was dense and lacking bubbles, but with tunnelling at the top... which I had read were indications of under-proofing!
Also the window pane seemed really good before I stopped bulk - it wasn't tearing so I took that as a sign that the acid hadn't started breaking down the gluten.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
May shed more light. At 20% levain and timing given it would normally point to over fermentation. Perhaps your starter is young and needs more time.
OK, sure, my starter...
I've had a starter going now for a couple of months. it lives in the fridge and when I'm planning to bake I take out a little in the evening and make up a leaven - in this case using 1 part starter, 2 parts flour (of which 75% strong bread flour, 25% dark rye), and 2 parts water. I had chilled the water in the fridge because I wanted to extend the fermentation overnight. So at 11pm it went into a warm cupboard (c. 22 deg. celsius) and I got it out at 7am the next day. At that point it had more than doubled and was looking frothy and vigorous. It still smelt and tasted floury and not completely acidic, so it seemed to be good to go.
I do wonder if the starter is too acidic though and maybe it was causing the dough to over-ferment. In future I'm going to feed it in the morning as well and try to get it at its peak after about 4 hours. I'm also trying to generally strengthen the starter with a better feeding regime.
Does that shed any light on my floppy dough problem?
Seeing crumb photos along with photos of the loaf is better if you’re trying to get help on your bread. Detailed description of how you maintain your starter, how many days since last feed it was since refrigerated and your recipe are all helpful.
The sloping shoulders is very typical of overfermented, the peak in the center not always.
I keep my starter in the fridge as well. I feed it whole rye, allow it to peak which is usually 3-4x rise then place it in the fridge. As long as it is less than 1 week since last fed, I take it out to build and levain without refreshing it. If you leave your starter in the fridge for much much longer then yes it will get quite acidic. If you then use a large innoculation of starter in your levain and then you allow your levain to over ferment then yes you can transfer excess acid into your dough so it may show signs of gluten breakdown sooner than you would expect.
is a pale crust. Add....Drooping shoulders and lost shape. Sounds overproofed.
Big bubbles at the top of the loaf are a sign of over-proofing (the dough can no longer hold smaller bubbles in). I am certainly not an expert sourdough baker but I am quite experienced at making over-proofed loaves...
With sourdough, over-proofing is generally about the lactic acid bacteria doing too much, making the dough too acidic, which spoils the proteins (as Benito explained^). Under-proofing is about the yeasts not doing enough, so too few bubbles form to expand during baking, meaning the ones you do get become big, with dense bread in between. I have indeed baked the loaves which appeared to be both at once. I assumed this was because the lactic acid bacteria/yeast balance in my starter was out of whack.
Just use a tin. I find it better for cutting too.
Suspect the tunnelling at the top is from a weak/degraded dough tearing internally when turned out. If you ever get the skin sticking as you invert - pretty much guarantee a big hole…