The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Frisky Rye Starter with Warm Water

February 22, 2022 - 5:28pm
louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Frisky Rye Starter with Warm Water

My first rye starter was never very active. I tried to perk it up with different refresh feeding ratios and keeping it warm in the proofer, but I managed to kill it dead.

So I tried again from scratch, using the directions from "The Rye Baker":  70g rye flour (I used whole rye) + 70g water 105 F/ 41 C, then leave in a covered jar at room temp 68 - 72 F.   Every 24 hrs, discard all but 70g  of starter and feed at 1:1:1.

This time, with nice warm water (20 seconds in the microwave) and a room temp about 70 F, here's what I got after about 32 hrs: New Rye Starter

It actually looks like the photos in books and the sourdough videos and might have actually tripled.  No aroma to speak of; the yeast must be well ahead of the LAB.  I'll keep this up for a week, try it in a bread, start the once a week feed, room temp for 12 hrs and then in the fridge.   I hope that the recommended 1:10:10 weekly refresh works, but I'll be amazed if it does.

 

Share
  • Facebook logo
  • Twitter logo
alcophile's picture
alcophile
Feb 22 2022 - 7:31pm

Congratulations! That looks like the one I made last year.

The first "volcano" I understood was not yeast, but certain gas-producing LAB. Then it goes quiet and finally begins expanding again with yeast. See this post for an excellent discussion, especially the comments by mariana.

I have been using the 1:10:10 refresh for almost a year now. Sometimes it is 14 days (or more) between feedings and it's still going strong.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen
Feb 22 2022 - 11:28pm

Thanks very much.  Would you kindly share some details on the 1:10:10 refresh:

  • How long does the starter warm up at room temp outside the fridge before the 1:10:10 feeding?
  • How long after the 1:10:10 refresh do you start the next step?
  • Do you do any more feedings before building the levain (or mixing the dough)?
  • Do you usually build a levain and let it preferment before mixing the final dough?  Or do you go right to the final dough?
  • Do you do anything special/differently when using the rye starter with an otherwise wheat/whole wheat dough?  Does it ferment faster in a wheat dough than a typical wheat starter would?
alcophile's picture
alcophile
Feb 23 2022 - 1:17pm

Here are some answers to your questions.

  • How long does the starter warm up at room temp outside the fridge before the 1:10:10 feeding?

A couple hours (if I remember) or not at all. I figure the warm water will activate the small amount of sour remaining in the container.

  • How long after the 1:10:10 refresh do you start the next step?

Usually within ≈24 hours, sometimes 12–14 hours. I follow Ginsberg’s recommendation of 36 hours maximum.

  • Do you do any more feedings before building the levain (or mixing the dough)?

I refresh once before using in any pre-ferment. Here is a photo of a fine rye meal sponge that used the rye sour after a 12-hour refresh. The sponge is also at the 12-hour mark. I’m using this sponge today in a Pumpernickel bread.

  • Do you usually build a levain and let it preferment before mixing the final dough?  Or do you go right to the final dough?

All of the recipes I have followed use the rye sour in a pre-fermented sponge. The recipes in The Rye Baker and in German blogs have used a pre-fermented sponge.

  • Do you do anything special/differently when using the rye starter with an otherwise wheat/whole wheat dough?  Does it ferment faster in a wheat dough than a typical wheat starter would?

I’ve been too busy baking rye breads lately, so I can't answer that. But I do want to use it for a wheat bread. I’m not planning to switch it to a wheat starter when I do use it.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen
Feb 23 2022 - 1:44pm

If I understand so far after the culture has been in the fridge for a week or so:

  • Remove the starter from the fridge
  • Discard all but 7g
  • Refresh with 70g warm water + 70g rye flour
  • Leave at room temp 12-24 hrs
  • ---  Do you wait for signs of peaking, eg, doubling size, dome, etc or just go at 12+ hrs?
  • Refresh again before using in a pre-ferment
  • --- Is this another 1:10:10 refresh?
  • --- How long do you let this sit before mixing the sponge? By the clock or signs of peaking?

The sponge looks great and the pumpernickel sounds delicious.  Can you recommend any favorites from ̈"The Rye Baker" that might be more tolerant of a sourdough/rye novice? 

Thanks again

alcophile's picture
alcophile
Feb 23 2022 - 8:01pm

Here's how I follow Ginsberg's instructions:

  • Remove the starter from the fridge
  • Discard all but 7g
  • Refresh with 70g warm water + 70g rye flour
  • Leave at room temp 12-24 hrs

I sometimes goose it a little with warmer temperatures (≈75–80 °F for part of the 12 h), especially in the winter. I also have started to use 5:50:50 to conserve flour as I haven't used the discard much, if at all.

  • ---  Do you wait for signs of peaking, eg, doubling size, dome, etc or just go at 12+ hrs?

I usually wait at least 12 h, but often go up to ≈24 h. It usually has doubled but I don't always measure.I don't think you will get a dome—not enough gluten for that.

  • Refresh again before using in a pre-ferment

Just the one refresh before using in a pre-fermented sponge for a recipe. The fed starter is used in the sponge.

  • --- Is this another 1:10:10 refresh?

See above

  • --- How long do you let this sit before mixing the sponge? By the clock or signs of peaking?

Are you referring to the sponge after preparing it for the recipe?

I am still very much a novice with rye breads. I have had trouble with shaping free-form loaves so I have been partial to pan breads. The Caraway-Beer Bread (has lots of caraway, which I like), Valais Rye Bread (with walnuts), and Paderborn Rye (uses Brotgewürz, German bread spice; very interesting) have all worked pretty good for me. I also made the Dakota Norwegian Rye early on. The recipes with lower rye% may be easier, but the Valais Rye worked well. Some of the recipes have errors in quantities; I had problems with the Auvergne Rye.

If you can get a copy of Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread from the library, it has a very informative section on rye breads. I got mine through inter-library loan. I made a couple of the high% rye breads from there as well. The book is a little expensive to own, though.

The Pumpernickel is not the one from The Rye Baker, but from a German eBook I found on Amazon. I'll know after a couple more days how it turned out.

Good luck and happy baking!

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen
Feb 23 2022 - 11:03pm

I think I understand the process better, now.  the 1:10:10 refresh, 12 - 24 hrs until doubled (more or less) and then mix the sponge.

I got a very tasty frisbee from the Auvergne bread, as I did from Hamelman's mixed flour miche.  The rye - whole wheat combination is really delicious.   I ordered whole rye flour for the starter, medium rye for the doughs, and high gluten flour for the first clear flour formulas, and just to get a bit more lift with high whole grain %  breads.  

Thanks again for the explanations.

Mark Stone's picture
Mark Stone
Feb 25 2022 - 2:30pm

Nice! The new starter definitely looks much healthier!