How I make 'sourwort'
In this post I will describe the simple formula and process I use for preparing 'sourwort' for my bakes.
150g cracked rye malt (by Weyermann) which I buy from local homebrew supply shops near me
500g tap water at 47C|117F
I put the malt into one of those vacuum seal containers with hand-pump (picture).
Then I pour over it warm water and stir. Pump out air as much as possible to create an oxygen-free enviroment.
The mash must remain under anaerobic conditions at 42-45C|108-113F for the next 36-48 hours untouched. I am lucky enough to possess a Brod&Taylor foldable proofer for this job.
When time comes I open carefully the container because it has become very fizzy.
You' ll be taken by the sour green-apples aroma that emerges out of the container. No putrid activity whatsoever.
I let cool down to room temperature with open lid (no rush) and strain the soured mash using one of those 'French press coffee makers'.
In the picture you can see the strained 'sourwort' in its glass container. The yield is about 300g.
Now it is ready for use to make bread. Or you can store it in the fridge (4C|39F) for the next 1-2 weeks and use it straight from the fridge to make bread at will.
I use this 'sourwort' in conjuction with instant dry yeast to bake my favorite tin loafs and not only.
In my next post I will describe how I make beautiful fragrant sourwort-bread in two and a half hours (plus bake time)
with extraordinary crumb texture.
You 'll be in for a very pleasant surprise with the outcome !!!!!
show
That's very cool. Looks beautiful. I'd love to learn more about your process because under anaerobic conditions I'm wondering how you get yeast replication (budding) and at 42-45C, that's below the saccharification range of the amylases - more in a beta-glucanase (with rye, not a bad call, to avoid making gloop) or low proteolytic range, not necessary in rye or 2-row barley any longer. I'd expect some kind of a rest at 65-70 C (I prefer the higher end, for a-amylase optimum) to saccharify the starches. Are you doing some sort of "sour mash," using prior, acidified mash at all?
Thank you 'Gadjowheaty'.
In the process I describe there is no yeast involved. The temperature mentioned and the anaerobic conditions will suppress spontaneous yeast development and let LAB thrive, which is exactly what it is all about. "Extraction of Lactic Acid Bacteria from Malt". You might be interested in reading 'RusBrot' blog for he is the one who introduced this technique, not me.
And no, I am not using any prior acidified mash as you mention. Just plain rye malt.
Oh sure, sorry. CLAS. Never tried it but many here swear by it. I'll have to give it a shot.
Paul, this sourwort is essentially a flourless CLAS. Flour-based CLAS (or any other flour based sourdough starter, rye or wheat based) could be made from it in one short step. Not that one would need to.
Did you see the original 2015 German article by Jörg Krüger from which this idea (of making and using sourwort in bread) was borrowed?
http://braumagazin.de/article/berliner-weisse/
In English
I found it utterly fascinating that beermeisters acidify their beers this way, with a natural concentrate of lactic acid bacteria from malted grain and their acids. Some people report good results with rye malt, others prefer using pale barley malt to create such sourwort. I would rather try using wheat malt for the same purposes.
Weyermann Malt (with Döhler GmbH) produces a Sour Wort from barley.
https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-sour-wort-2/
https://www.doehler.com/en/lp/sour-wort.html
If I can find this in the USA, could I just use this instead of making my own?
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-sour-wort-20-kg/
I think I saw a smaller one somewhere.
Gary, i have never seen that in our beermaking supplies stores. Ours only sell pure strains of lactic bacteria to make such sour wort without fail.
https://torontobrewing.ca/products/lallemand-wildbrew-sour-pitch-10-g
I think that sour wort that you linked has no living bacteria no more, it's advertised only as a clean label source of lactic acid, whereas homemade sourwort will continue acting as a sourdough starter inside bread dough.
The beauty of the homemade sourworts from the variety of malts is the variety of starters that you can develop from them, or "bread dough aroma improvers".
Would it be possible to use this or similar bacteria instead of the homemade method? Or is it easier to do the homemade method?
It's the same old question, alcophile, what do you prefer in your bread starter - pure sourdough cultures or the wild unknown as in sourdough made from scratch?
All pure cultures ultimately come from nature of course. The larger is your bread production scale, the more you would tend to rely on pure cultures both to maintain the same quality of aroma and taste and to not disrupt the production schedule just because your starter died, got sick or changed its aroma or gassing power. Because making sours and sourdough starters from pure culture is quick and easy, on schedule as well.
In Canada we have a company that offers four different pure sourdough cultures, one or two of them are sold by Modernist Bread Pantry to the retail customers, you can activate them and propagate them for a long time:
https://modernistpantry.com/products/florapan-la4-starter-culture.html
https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/canada/brands/florapan-sourdough-baking-cultures/
Scroll to the bottom of that page to see the difference in aromas and acidity, pls.
At home it is easier and more interesting (and cheaper) to play with flours, malts, fruits/berries and other wild sources of microbes in hopes of catching something unique and unexpected. It is easier and quicker to create a sourdough starter from malt than from flour though, a little known fact.
I use pure cultures only in homemade dairy creations, yogurts, kefirs, sour creams, cheeses, etc. in order to obtain that specific aroma and texture. I bake bread on a small scale, keeping two sd starters going, rye and wheat, so I like experimenting with spontaneous fermentation of flours and malts on the side. I like it better.
Yes, I assumed that would be dead. I have ordered some pale rye malt to enjoy making it myself. Looks like a fun experiment.
HI Mariana, thank you for the clarification on the CLAS process, about which I know almost nothing. Lots to learn.
I didn't know about this specific method on acidification re brewing but I reference a method (for the same purpose) in the making of sauermalz. I've never actually done it (as I mention in the post, I used both hydrochloric and sulfuric acid, which really freaks people out but it's common in British brewing. Ca, Cl and SO4 all do specific good things for various British beer styles). Most get their water treatment acids from these guys.
Traditionally the brewers would allow the mash itself to do an "acid rest" overnight at 35-45C, which as you know is propitious for lactobacilli. Now they do something like it seems is being described in the article (thanks!), a separate propagation with wort, something like yeast propagation in yeast brinks. This is then added in to acidify the mash. As with sauermalz, which can be added in with known pH in known quantities, this addition of acidified wort also allows good control of the process (unlike the traditional method, which could be pretty variable).
I agree with you that wheat is a great choice and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they actually do that in the making of Berliner Weisse and related - these are ales, so they don't fall afoul of the requirement to use only barley in the making of lagers.
At a local home brew shop I see a wide variety of Weyermann products. Can you be more specific about the one you use?
Thanks
Regular rye malt is what you're looking for. Many companies produce it, Briess stateside for one. Weyermann makes many proprietary malts, but those are barley malts and I don't believe they make anything but regular, rye "base" malt. They are a superior company in every way, though to be honest I don't know it's worth the premium when you're just using the rye like this (not as a quality flavoring component in beer, for example).
Weyermann also produces CaraRye caramel rye malt and Chocolate Rye malt (looks like dark cocoa):
CaraRye
Chocolate Rye Malt
I purchased some of the Chocolate Rye at a homebrew store. One of the recipes in The Rye Baker uses black rye malt, but now I'm not so sure the Chocolate Rye is what I should use (see recent solod discussion). The price was not all that bad compared to price of specialty flours.
(Note: Edited the link to CaraRye)
Shows I've been out of the game a long time! I liked their cara- series in barley.
Is it black rye malt or black rye flour? If it's flour, I wouldn't think the chocolate and black rye would be a good sub because the chocolate is a roasted malt and black rye is something like our first clear in wheat flour.
They are both malts. Not the elusive (for North Americans) Schwarzroggenmehl.
Just in case it's not clear what I'm asking, I know the above you listed are both malts, but are you sure Ginsberg is calling for black rye malt, and not black rye flour? You may know - but I ask because the flour, common in Austria and used in Germany, R2500, is not a malt but just the milled grain - the reserved portion, in part at least, of what's left after milling when more of the endosperm flour is taken - the rye analogue to wheat's first clear.
So - is Ginsberg calling for black malt, or black rye flour? That's what I'm wondering.
Ah, I misunderstood.
In Ginsberg's Pumpkinseed Rye (Kürbiskernbrot) in The Rye Baker book, he uses black rye malt at 1.8%. He states in the description that the flavor is "accented by the burnt notes of black rye malt." But all the discussion of German rye malts for baking makes me question what I should use. I wish I could understand the podcasts on German malts.linked in the solod thread.
OK, thanks. He refers back to pg. 42 for a better description
and...he's wrong, lol. First, as we've learned, red rye malt is not simply a rye malt that's been roasted. I believe the commercial product, which he used to sell, comes from the English maltsters Munton's. As Ilya called it, it is "faux" red rye malt. Personally if I didn't have the true red rye malt, I'd sub in a darker crysta malt. Not the same thing as red rye malt at all, but with simple roasted malt you've wasted the sugar enzymes, and lose that sweetness that is endemic to both mashed rye malt and red rye malt (both sweet and sour). I'd opt for Crystal 80 or, for more toffeeish, roasted tones, I'd go with 120. I think it works really well with dark rye breads (mind you, this just based on the experience of several months now, nothing more). I used C120 a lot, particularly in things like strong scotch ale (I mentioned the competition. This was a strong scotch ale, "Seven Suns Strong Scotch Ale," for the seven malts in the ale). I also like it in "Baltic" or "Imperial Porters."**And I'll be damned, he does call for black rye malt, good close attention as I would have missed the pickup. I thought for sure this was an instance of his calling for black rye flour, that R2500. And I've never heard of black rye malt. I'm doubtful it exists but I very well could be wrong. Have you searched for it?
** Kind of cool, my wife's uncle ran the Tartu Õlletehas, Estonia, during Soviet occupation and retired shortly after the fall of the USSR. He's talked about in one of Michael Jackson's (beer writer. Not "king of pop") books on world beer. They produced a fantastic Imperial or Baltic porter.
Edit 2: Whoops, I do see references to dark rye malt used in baking. Not sure it's black, but probably what he's referring to?
https://puratosmalt.com/products/dark-rye-malt
https://agrarzone.com/organic-baking-malt-rye-malt-dark
https://www.ulprospector.com/en/la/Food/Detail/15558/335779/Weyermann-Dark-Rye-Malt
Here's one specifically named chocolate rye malt:
https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Home-Brewing-Supplies/Malted-Grain-Sugar/Dark-Malt/240-L-Chocolate-Rye-Malt
And here's one for a black rye malt.https://riverbendmalt.com/malt/seashore-black-rye/- I'm uncertain if this is black rye malt. I don't know of a "black rye" variety of grain, only black rye flour, so I don't know what this one is.I am very curious to try these. I'd think one would have to be very careful if making it on one's own, as I would think it's easy to go from a gentle roasting to the right color, to ending up with burnt like hell malt. Like doing dark invert sugar or caramel, easy does it and watch it like a hawk as it gets close. That's my experience with this kind of a process.
Edit: I also want to apologize on the error regarding black rye malt. I should look first before making statements. I was wrong.
The last link you listed mentions an heirloom variety of rye, Seashore Black Rye. Ginsberg uses it in a recipe (Heirloom Dixie Rye) on theryebaker.com. I just baked this recipe using regular whole rye (he has instructions for this) but it turned out to be a "ryesaster." I'll post more on this on the CB.
I just checked the red rye malt I purchased from Ginsberg's NY Bakers and it is Fawcett's Crystal Rye, another fine English maltster.
Your links for dark or black rye malt are interesting. These add to my confusion surrounding the inactive rye malts (yes, I'm still confused about the whole thing!). Is the product on the agrarzone.de site fermented on not? I also found this product:
https://www.hobbybaecker.de/brot-und-broetchen/backmittel/roggenmalz-geroestet-400-g-dose#anfrage
I sent an inquiry to them asking whether it is fermented before roasting.
The Puratos rye malt (220–280 EBC) is a little darker than Weyemann's CaraRye (150–200 EBC) and Fawcett's Crystal Rye (125–250 EBC; 70–80° L). I think I might try the recipe linked on that product page.
I purchased Weyermann Chocolate Rye from a homebrew store in Janesville. The ground malt looks like French roast coffee powder. Even though Weyermann and others produce these more highly roasted rye malts, I'm wary of Ginsberg's use of it based on the confusion. Is it traditional? Maybe it doesn't matter.
Lol, hobbybaecker is going to wonder what the hell is going on with us Americans. I queried them on the same thing. Their initial response was:
-which doesn't address the question I asked, same as yours, but was a kind of boilerplate description of its baking qualities, etc. Which is fine. Maybe they feel a bit tetchy about disclosing a manufacturing method? I don't know - certainly don't want to tread on that. I thanked them and sent the same question, basically:
So, between us hopefully we'll get some news. IMO we can conclude these malts in Germany are as Ilya says, all in essence a "red rye malt" that is fermented. Not sure if they are roasted or not, obviously adding to the confusion is that some labels and info indicate "roasted" and others do not. On the dark rye malts, just happened to notice that the Puratos is listed as a pH of 4.0-4.4 but that doesn't give us anything because darker malts will all give this range in distilled water. Looking at the description of the agrarzone, it seems doubtful to me its fermented, but is roasted - like chocolate malt? The Weyermann chocolate rye is, I think, just a rye version of barley chocolate (or black patent, etc.) malt, i.e., malted rye that has been roasted without any saccharification in the drum (as with crystal malts) or fermentation. Probably for those doing a mild or a porter (not imo a robust or imperial porter - your everyday porter, which tends to have chocolate in it more than the higher gravity porters, in my experience). Some folks like rye malt in brewing and may want those coffee-ish or roast notes on top of the certain rye spiciness (I don't know what happens to that quality with roasted rye malt), not sure. Like I said, just not to my taste but lots of people love at least some rye. Also I think I'd prefer to sub in C120 or something like that rather than a roasted malt like a chocolate malt, but each to their own. Probably worth working with all this stuff on an identical formula but for this component!Have you tried asking on your Facebook groups about Roggenmalz dunkel? I am not a Facebook member; never was, never will.
Yes, but another time - it's already a bloody mess!
OK, here's one possibility. What the German's call "aromamalzmehl" is a kind of inactive malted flour that is the darker stuff we saw earlier - it's available in rye, wheat, barley. I imagine this is much like the chocolate malt species. This is what Brotdoc refers to in this recipe. In the comments he specifically refers to this company, and their product:
Aroma-Malzmehl
This, however, is different, I believe, from Roggenmalzpulver. From Brotdoc's recipe:
"15 g Roggenmalzpulver..."
It's Roggenmalzpulver, I believe, which is the fermented malt product we're talking about:
Now, I'm not sure how tightly these names are regulated (I imagined highly? But I'm seeing some evidence otherwise?), as I've seen some "pulver" pages seeming to imply the simple "aromamalz" (translated):
It is possible that the rye malt is fermented, but not in the process used for solod. I found this other site, bongu.de, that sells a rye flavor piece (Roggenaromastück) that is:
This product was mentioned in the Comments as used by Dietmar Kappl for the Schwarze Muckel at homebaking.at. It may, or may not, be the same as that referred by der Brotdoc. Did you click the link at Adler for the inactive malts? Here's the translation:
Sounds like a crystal rye malt, not fermented. So, possibly two different products. Oy!
I have laid the question out. Will let you know.
You can't use his book as a source for that information, you'll need to do further research. He took a lot of shortcuts, and while it is a good reference, there are plenty of errors in facts and misappropriation ( I know this is a funny word to use in the context of baking, but it seems to fit).
I did make the Pumpkinseed Rye (Kürbiskernbrot) in The Rye Baker using Weyermann Roggenröstmalz (Chocolate Rye malt).
Was authentic or traditional? I don't know. Was it delicious? Absolutely!!
In addition to brewing applications, Weyermann also offers its malts to the food and baking industry:
https://www.weyermann.de/product/weyermann-roggenroestmalz-2/?cat=lebensmittel-roggenmalz
https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/product/weyermann-chocolate-rye-malt-4/?cat=food-rye-malt-en-us
brouwland.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=15181&filename=Specification.pdf
I'm just getting referred back to this post, or your original post, but if I cut and paste the links, it goes to the product page. Yes, that's straight rye malt. I much prefer Weyermann to Briess in general, but here's Briess's (for some reason I can't link directly to the rye malt product detail .pdf, but if you scroll down or do a "find" for rye malt, it's there.
As far as I understood you, you got this method from here:
https://brotgost.blogspot.com/2016/11/blog-post.html
Have you developed some general rule(s) about which % of total water in bread recipe should be substituted in order to achieve the best effect? How does that shorten the total bulk fermentation time? Have you measured your sourwort's TTA and pH?
Soviet bread technologists developed the same use and explicit rules for the use of a different sour liquid full of lactic bacteria to replace some of the total water in yeasted breads: soured whey (the byproduct of cheese production). Your method is better, because your sourwort is purely grain based, so it results is no animal/dairy products in bread which is important to many people for a variety of reasons.
Thank you 'mariana', your input is much appreciated, as always in this forum.
You are absolutely right as to where I was inspired from. I mention this clearly in my introductory post https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69893/sourwort
So far, I only had the chance to try two different percentage levels of total recipe water substitution: 33.3% (1/3) and 40%. And in baker's terms 25% and 30%, since the hydration of my loaves is usually 75%. No scientific rationale behind it, just by trial and error. Both levels seem to work equally well, judging by the effect on gluten (crumb structure) and taste. See here https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69903/sourwort-bread an example of the 40% level. Perhaps in my next bakes I will be brave enough to pump this up (say by increments of 5) and see how it behaves. My main worry, as you might have guessed, is gluten deterioration before bake time. (What's another failure!!!!!)
In my bake-example (link above) I use instant-dry-yeast (IDY) as the main lifting agent. The % used (0.8%) I consider it to be on the low side of the spectrum (I'm sure one can go even lower). However to my pleasant surprise the mix-to-bake time was only two and a half hours. The 'sourwort' technique except all else, has a profound effect on accelerating fermentation times.
And this is exactly the reason why I feel all that excited. Once you have brewed your 'sourwort' (a job no more difficult than preparing filter-coffee really) it waits for you patiently in the fridge without loosing any of its properties, until you decide on a whim to make bread. And there you have it on your table 3.5 hours later. No maintenance regimes, no hustle, no natural or yeasted preferments, no elongated bulk times, no retardation schemes, no prescheduling, no cleaning, no
smoking(sorry I got carried away!) and lots of another no's. And as a result you get beautiful, fragrant, fluffy, tasty bread equivalent to our beloved sourdough (not to be missunderstood, I've ben using sourdough in the last decade now, with satisfactory results)."Are You Not Entertained? !!!"My budget does not allow me to possess a reliable pH meter, although I would very much love to have one. Therefore I cannot answer to you on the pH/TTA level of my 'sourwort' or my bread-doughs. However using those inexpensive pH strips it gives me a result somewhere between 3.4 and 3.8. Taste wise is a bit milder than a 5 degree apple-cider vinegar which I believe is around 3.0.
Also, my humble baking-instict tells me that probably there is a lot of room for application in rye-breads. I have no experience on 'ryes', so I leave that to the good experts around here in TFL.
I've read your posts and it sounds pretty cool! And indeed it sounds exactly like flourless CLAS, with a very similar pH. It's interesting that Rus Brot also recommends to create and maintain CLAS with some addition of malt, he says it improves flavour (and probability it starts lacto fermenting to begin with).
I think you mentioned you've tried his version of CLAS too - so I am curious how this method compares to it? CLAS you can maintain by feeding and be confident that it'll be ready to bake when you need it. However with it you have to add some portion of flour, and that can limit the amount of it you would add to a dough.
Thanks 'Ilya Flyamer'.
It so happens that it was firstly reading your posts here in TFL, as well as 'Yippee's, that drew my attention to this so called CLAS technique, a type II Sourdough basically. And then of course (following your links), reading the information "straight from the horse's mouth" so to speak, i.e. 'RusBrot' blog.
I have no experience with 'ryes' so I applied this method to my mostly-wheat bread experiments that followed. Reached all the way up to 8% (flour in CLAS to total flour in recipe) use with good results. Pleasant tangy notes and aromas not usually found in straight-dough yeast breads. Near sourdough type I results. Great stuff. Really.
For me, the thing that tilted the balance towards 'sourwort' is the magical effect it has on gluten. Whereas taste and fermentation times match closely that of CLAS, its conditioning effect on gluten is unparalleled. My wheat breads burst out of their baking-pans like balloons even with high degrees of whole wheat added. And open crumb emerges out of nowhere (I mean no special techniques used to promote this holy-grail for many). The crumb is open, fluffy and very very shiny, cotton like appearence. As if 'sourwort' was an excellent emulsifier of some sort.
Harry Potter stuff !!!
Can't agree with you more!
Yippee
Hi, Mariana:
As always, I would be very grateful if you could share your insights on the application of sourwort in bread.
Thank you!
Yippee
Hi Yippee,
This liquid is not really sour "wort", because wort means something quite specific in bread and beer technology. True wort is a mix of 300g malt and 1L water that is taken through three steps of heating: 30min at 45C, then 1hr at 55C, finally for 2-3hrs at 63C. At this moment the wort is ready to be filtered, cooled to the desired temperature, diluted and used to grow any microbial cultures: yeast or lactic bacteria
It is a flourless lactic acid starter that can be used in a variety of ways
1) to make other starters from it in one stap by adding to it flour and water, or by adding yeast to it or a source of yeast (raisins, a pinch of whole wheat or whole spelt flour, etc).
This starter itself can be propagated indefinitely as well by feeding it clean water and either a portion of scalded flour, a portion of wort, or a handful of cracked/ground malt. Keep it at 38-42C for at least 6 hours or until it reaches the desired degree of acidity. The degree of acidity is checked by checking the pH value (about 3.3 to 3.6) or by tasting.
2) to make preferments (levains, sponges, bigas, sd poolishes, etc) as you would do with any other sourdough starter.
3) to speed up the process of preparing any yeasted dough by replacing 10-15% of water in the recipe with this lactic acid starter. By that I mean that in the recipe from 1000g of flour, you would use 100-150g of flourless starter and the remaining liquid as in the recipe (water, milk, etc)
The straight yeasted dough that usually takes 2-4 hours of bulk fermentation will be ready in 40-90min instead. Of course, you can use this starter to accelerate preparation of yeasted preferments as well.
4) to compensate for the lack of lactic bacteria in modern yeast (which is super pure due to the advances in yeast production technology), in flour, and in your baking environment. I.e. in bakeries lactic bacteria are everywhere and even their purely yeasted doughs have lactic fermentation going on which makes their breads better with a typical bakery quality and aroma impossible to achieve at home unless you add a bit of French style sourdough starter to your yeasted preferments and yeasted doughs.
It won't alter the traditional length of the dough preparation, but it will make it smell 'yougurty' when raw and heavenly when baked.
5) finally, it can be used in sauercraut fermentation and some folks even use it to sour or curdle milk, to use in dairy-free soda bread and muffin baking, etc., etc., etc.
I am not into CLAS myself, although I adore it aroma, because I find that it alters the taste of breads somewhat. I prefer other flour based sourdough starters. But I love flourless sourdough starters. They are the greatest, really. As the topicstarter mentioned, they are unbelievable as bread improverw, they improve both wheat and rye breads. Mine are true "sourdough starters, with wild yeast , not just with LAB, prepared in at 32-33C, ready to bake with them in 2 days. This is how it looks like, flourless rye starter, this one was made from 20g of rye flour and a cup of water.
I also never tried making Andrey's CLAS (the Russian speaking surgeon who bakes bread in Germany, whom you call rusbrot, which is the name of his youtube channel, it means "Russisch Brot" = Russian bread). I don't even know how close is his CLAS to the real deal, to what is sold as CLAS by the institute of bread technology in Moscow.
I have both rye and wheat malts at home and even sprouted spelt, so I might give this German/Berliner liquid lactic starter a try as well. Flourless starters keep very well refrigerated, up to one month without refreshment, easy, and can be used straight from the fridge in any of the above applications.
Best wishes,
m.
i.e. a concentrated lactic acid "starter" (minus the yeasts) and then add in some bakers yeast for the rise then why not just use yoghurt? It makes a tasty bread. Will add nice texture too.
I'm interested in your wort sourdough starter Mariana. May I suggest you do an in-depth write-up? I'd be most grateful.
Of course, we can add some lactic acid with yoghurt or with sour whey which we drained from yoghurt when we prepared a homemade Greek yoghurt. It makes a very tasty bread indeed,one of my favorites. However, that alters bread formula and bread label, makes a different bread.
Also, lactic acid bacteria in yoghurt do not ferment bread dough, they need lactose and very high temperatures for that to happen. Whereas malt based lactic acid starter has live cultures that will work in bread dough all the way, at any temperature, they feed on maltose and other sugars naturally found in flour.
Thank you for the invitation to write about flourless sourdough starters, Abe. I am a bit hesitant, because they need warm temperatures which I find inside my programmable bread machine, Zojirushi Virtuoso. It keeps 32-33C for 12hrs non stop which is very convenient.
Most people either have non-programmable bread machines or make their starters at room temperature, in 18-27C temperature range without strict temperature control, so such method would be of no interest to them. I myself try to rely only on easy methods without any special gear in home baking, to make bread truly affordable and easy. I just happen to have that bread machine, I do not know how else to achieve such temperature for 2-3 days non stop.
Temperature control is easy and cheap.
A controller like this BN-LINK is $19 from Amazon. Plug a low wattage light into it and put it in a cooler.
I use a Mr. Coffee cup heater instead of a light because I already had it.
Gary, thank you so much for your advice!
I need that Mr.Coffee cup heater!!! I am getting myself one right away. My coffee always gets unpleasantly cold before I finish drinking my cup of coffee as I work at my desk.
I will also get the controller you linked and test how it works. Thank you for the advice! At one point I got myself Brod&Taylor, tested it and decided it was not for me - it being too big for my kitchen and for what I needed it for was the most deciding factor, so I gifted it to someone else.
Maybe your setup will work better for me. I don't have to use a cooler which I don't own, just my bread machine chamber, oven, or any other 'box'/enclosed space, I guess.
Where do you keep the temperature probe during that time, i.e. which temperature do you control - air, walls/bottom of the box, the dough/starter etc.?
Thank you!
m.
I typically have the probe taped to the side of the cooler. If I'm being extra careful I attach it to the vessel containing my ferment with a rubber band or tape. The better insulated the enclosure the better controlled will be the temperature.
Some years ago I bought a tiny bluetooth thermometer and then I made a "dry suit" for it with one of those vacuum sealers. I can float an thermometer in my vessel and monitor the temperature independently of the controller. I've been able to verify good temperature stability. Right now I've got a mason jar of water with the thermometer floating inside to verify that my setup can hold 42C.
A crock pot is perfect if your container will fit inside. I might use a crock pot with a jar inside for this experiment.
Gary, I got the controller with a good range of temperatures (up to the temperature of the boiling water, for the scalds for some Baltic and Russian breads) and the mug warmer.
Apparently, the mug warmer heats up to 120F/48C or so, therefore I can use it directly to place the cup with the starter on it and control its temperature. Just covering the entire set up with a towel or an inverted pot might do the trick. I might be mistaken. I will test the variety of the set ups.
Thank you for the advice on taping the probe to the walls of the vessel or using a rubber band for it. 👌👍👍👍
The bluetooth thermometer with a dry suit makes me speechless. I am so envious. SO ENVIOUS!!! LOL
Thank you for giving me specific examples and explaining things in a non-scary way. : )
I got one, too! Thanks for the ideas, Mariana and Gary!
I plan to use it for making non-rye CLAS, which I need in much smaller quantities in my experimental recipes.
Yippee
Hi, Mariana:
The setup in my last picture is not feasible because the mug would get too hot from direct contact with the warmer🔥. So I used water as a buffer and placed the entire setup inside the Instant Pot with the lid on to minimize heat loss as follows:
Making 150g of buckwheat CLAS:
PXL_20220324_081945518~2.jpg
Water bath works, Yippee! I tried that in the past as well. It definitely works. So, good for you! Good luck with the buckwheat CLAS. What do you need it for?
Personally, I prefer dry setups, using air as a buffer, i.e. I use a small rack above the heating element just like in any oven or in Brod&Taylor proofing cabinet. Such rack is not necessary if you work with thermophilic sourdough starters or yogurts, they are OK with the wide range of hot temperatures and in B&T proofer yogurts are made sitting directly on the heating element. But for the mesophilic LAB cultures as in CLAS a buffer is definitely necessary.
I've made CLAS by putting a heating pad inside a large clip-on storage container, and then putting a small plastic container with flour/water directly onto the pad. The pad actually struggles to reach ~40C, I also had to wrap all this into a blanket. But it worked really well this way.
In my current flat I have an oven which when set to 35C maintains a perfect 40.5C (I also keep the container on a baking steel there to reduce any temperature fluctuations, and insert baking sheets on top and bottom to reduce radiant heat transfer), so it's really easy now.
Hi Yippee,
Is this the formula for buckwheat clas?
100 gr ground whole buckwheat
140 gr water
10 gr vinegar
Mix and put plastic film. keep 24 h at 40C as for rye/wheat clas?
Do you need a malt of some type and will the Arrowhead Mills (11% fiber so it is not the whole grain buckwheat) ground buckwheat flour work?
And MUST use malt or the stinky bacteria will take over. I failed twice because I ran out of barley malt and was too lazy to buy it. Once I used barley malt, everything went well, except for the pH meter incident
:
I used freshly ground buckwheat flour; not sure about the Arrowhead Mills flour. I guess you have to try it to find out.
Yippee
Did you use the groats (hulled seed) or the raw whole seed with hull?
Thanks!
(25 gr malt, 75 gr ground buckwheat)
190% hydr not 150% as for wheat?
And 190% hydration.
Yippee
deleted
The probe that came with the controller I purchased is rated IP68 (immersion to 1 m). I should be able to use it directly in the culture. I was also going to use the controller for scalds that are maintained at 55 °C or 65 °C in a crock pot like Gary suggested.
I got myself exactly the same model! I was thinking about immersing the probe as well. We'll see how that works if at all.
If you are going to do it in a crockpot partially filled with water in which your cup with the starters sits, then it is better to immerse it into that water. Water is not corrosive as acids in the starter.
Gary's suggestion about taping it to the side of the vessel is good as well.
I use the Inkbird with a Crockpot for my mashes/scalds, and I've been very happy with it so far. I also use one with a heating pad for my proofing box. The water in the bottom of the Crockpot would certainly work, but I haven't had to do that. Lay the probe in the bottom of the crock next to the vessel holding your wet grains (I use a bowl tightly covered with foil.) Put the lid on the Crockpot and then insulate it by draping a couple towels over it. Keeps everything clean and dry.
To avoid overshooting, I use the Warm setting for temps up to 150 deg F and then the Low setting for anything over that.
Thank you for sharing, Troy! Very valuable!
How do you use your heating pad? Do you put things straight on top of the pad or on a rack on top of the pad? Do you control the temperature of the pad itself or of the air inside the proofing box?
FWIW I use seedling germination mats on the cooler (my re-purposed proofing box, 72 quart picnic cooler) floor with a long cooling rack set on the pads, so bulk bowls, bannetons etc. do not rest on the pads. I have a large container of water that sits directly on the heating pad for some, though admittedly not enough humidity, though all my dough containers are covered with elastic shower caps anyway. My Inkbird probe is mounted midway up a side wall of the cooler for a better read of the chamber temperature. Works well for me.
Excellent set up!
Thank you, Paul! You connect several pads to one controller?
I usually place baking sheets with rolls or even pans with rising breads in them etc directly on top of the heating pad set on low.
But not so for the starters, they always sit on a rack to avoid overheating their bottoms.
I'm sorry Mariana, I wasn't clear. I have several controllers from brewing and cheesemaking days, for controlling cellar temps. No, I might have two for 2 different loaves at different stages (separate coolers, one pad per cooler) but generally I just have the one.
Your direct placement of the sheets on the pad - is this something like a bed heating pad, something one puts under one's back, etc.?
I have a few humidity controllers and a few ways of generating humidity (alpine cheeses are crazy - needing about 10-12C and upwards of 94-96% humidity!), and would love to build a DIY proofing box controlling both temp and RH. First things first - like basics on a loaf of bread!
Ok, thanks, Paul.
Yes I have two Sunbeam heating pads with removable covers, no autoshut off. One of their temperature setting is perfect for proof (42C) another - for scalds(65C). One pad is almost square and another is long, the length of the baking sheet, a perfect fit.
That's great, I'd like to give it a try, mariana, thanks. I'm used to proofing at around 26-28C (or, new to me, for both Brotdoc and Lutz's formulas, most of them are at a room temperature of 20-22C). Can you help me better understand the use of the higher temp of your proofing? Is this customary, or is this something you do to optimize something you're looking for?
Mariana, My proofing box is a true DIY hack job. But it works... :-)
I have a large tote from Walmart in my basement. The tote sits on a piece of 2" styrofoam insulation to insulate from the cold basement floor. The tote is wrapped in a piece of fiberglass insulation left over from when we built the house. Then, another piece of 2" styrofoam sits on top to insulate the lid.
Inside, the heating pad (1st Aid section at Walmart) sits on the bottom of the tote. Upside down and on top of that is an old, heavier cookie sheet to disperse the heat evenly. I have two stations inside and each has about an inch of lift from styrofoam pads to keep the bulking containers off the cookie sheet. The probe is stationed about 3" off the cookie sheet to measure air temp. Using 6-quart square cambros, I can bulk ferment 8 loaves (about 5 kg) of dough at a time. I have a single dough in a 4-quart covered bowl that I'm fermenting now in the picture below. Oddly enough, my phone camera didn't capture all of the LED's on the Inkbird controller. Temp was 76.4 deg with a setpoint of 76 deg.
This is a very well thought setup, Paul. Thank you for the well illustrated lesson on how to do it.
It amazes me that you keep the temperature so close to the desired one. 0.4F difference! Unbelievable!
I have the controller set to a 1 deg differential. When the temp drops to 75 deg, the controller turns on the heating pad. When it hits 77 deg, it turns it off. Because of the lag, the temp usually wanders up to about 77.2 deg before it starts coming back down. Likewise, it gets down to about 74.8 before heating back up. So, the air temp varies by about 2.5 deg F, but that occurs over a long enough cycle that the dough temp stays pretty constant at 76 deg. I just happened to grab the picture at a point in time when it was close to the setpoint. :-)
Thank you, Troy! I got my Inkbird delivered today but haven't started playing with it yet. I feel so lucky to be able to learn all those precious details from you.
These homemade setups cost way less than ready made proofing boxes and are so much fun! Very precise temp control and any size you want, as roomy or as miniature as you need for your baking needs.
Thank you!
Have fun with the new toy and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions on the setup!
Oh, that's in C, and I had to tweak it as I couldn't figure out why I was getting such high overruns, so that was just a lucky moment, lol.
On both overruns and cooling-off phases, it was clicking back on and off until way off target temp. I realized that though I set the Inkbird to C, for some reason it has the differential(s) as if it were still in F (e.g., a couple degrees F, but it was actually a couple degrees C). I went back in and the lowest differential I can set in C is .3 C, which is fine. I use the "cook" setting to get me up to temp. then "warming" setting on the rice cooker will do a good job of avoiding large overruns. I usually let the whole thing settle in for a half hour or so before adding my malt porridge, or whatever I'm doing. Works pretty well for me.
Are you concerned with the Crockpot insert cracking without any liquid in it? The instructions on mine do not recommend heating the crock when empty. I realize that it's not completely empty, but there is no liquid for heat transfer. Maybe I shouldn't worry.
We're not letting it get very hot because the controller is turning it off. Adding some water to the bottom wouldn't hurt but I don't think you have to worry about cracking without it.
Water in the crockpot allows to even out temperatures, so that both the top and the bottom of the cup or the lunchbox with the starter maintain the same temperature.
I once even placed my liquid starter in a ziplock bag floating in a warm bath sitting on a heating pad for that reason. It worked. It was anaerobic, I squeezed all air out of the bag and fermentation proceeded speedily.
That's really clever. I put enough water in it so that my whatever-it-is floats and the water just comes up the top of the material (I try to leave about 1/4" or so freely floating above the water line so as to contaminate the material). I'm doing it right now, in fact - doing a malted rye porridge for the next few hours at 65.5 C, after which I'll raise it to 71 C to stop all conversion activity where it is.
I was worried about the gradient and checked my last mash with a probe a few hours in. The mash temp matched up with the controller temp well. BUT... It was a small amount of mash and relatively thin. Will definitely try the water bath if I end up doing something larger. Thanks for the tip!
Agree with Gary.
Hi,
I wanted to make my crockpot work with a temp controller but when the temp controller detected a temp drop outside the target range, the crockpot resumed heating . The input of heat raised the temp much higher than the target set for (5-10F higher). I tried the crockpot at HI, LOW, and WARM settings but could not control the temps. This behavior might be specific to a particular model crockpot.
My tub yogurt maker (an old simple one) works at about 104F for making yogurt. So I think that is why maintaining the temp of a water bath at 85F to 120F with a temp controller was not a problem.
I have some thoughts concerning this issue. I tested a Crockpot at 65 °C for the feasibility of performing a scald for 12+ hours. The Crockpot was able to maintain a water bath at this temperature; I was planning on having the scald ingredients in a container floating in the bath. I have not tried it to see if it maintains the setpoint at a lower temperature.
Maintaining the temperature at a lower setpoint may be more difficult because the heat output of the Crockpot is too high. This can create wide swings. The yogurt maker may have a lower wattage heating element. Does the controller have an adjustable hysteresis (interval)? I would set it at the smallest possible range to minimize the swings.
Is the temp. probe in a water bath or directly in the sourwort? Using a water bath may help even out the heating cycles by providing a heat sink for the Crockpot's heating element.
Hi,
I was trying to make the fermented red rye (solod) starting with rye malt (rusbrot's method). I got through the 10 hrs at 40C stage (in a BT proofer, max 49C) but I couldn't make it through the 65C stage. (Now I have a lot of rye in the freezer for porridge?!)
Water Bath:
When I make clas, I use a glass jar in a water bath - 40C- and the probe is in the water in the yogurt maker. It works well.
But with trying to make solod, since I had 500 gr of rye malt then I put it directly in the crockpot (I have a small one). As you know, it didn't work.
I am thinking of paying $20 for solod on ebay. I just hesitate knowing who is a reputable dealer.
Thanks again for your help!
xx
Can you share which dealers you've found? We could share our experiences, if any, with the brands of solod that are available to you.
I found this ebay offer. The package looks like the ones I 've seen youtube rye bakers recommend.
Thank you for your help! Have you used this powder before and if so, does it give a tremendous addition to flavor?
I have enjoyed reading and studying your clas bakes!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255138209887?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110013%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIMRXI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D240657%26meid%3D0a73f5be5c054615b6ccf8249575119e%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D134189340012%26itm%3D255138209887%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedRVI&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A2551382098870a73f5be5c054615b6ccf8249575119e%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABAIq9Pd1eiueKRlho1pRz6mJRoDqwNlSGickbl88sDIHR72EepW62YRVoNEG2qzTeSCLk0ZzS2wSWpisnMVfBq9GpLdu4NjzYGrnwB%252Fp5A6IGsupgXU62SjZYVDJ%252F84IsJezLoDzHWUXjoYEX3p5%252BWAnkdwlj3uddvg5Ik5vzy6uoXUYZJDWDcp4grLumCTBTuOwQdD6NmO1MswiaiLjQOzhucNb9R7Ee4x3YfEx9FTKErY%252BUzB0hZ4oeu4umdg6DNg7qT%252F8dlPrC3kDUZoq6hbGRfnvZHa7Fr8ZoWx26Kqrhjf97G4DOyUtFAgc3VB5vpqsCcAs4t1MvC8zlfo0xRuw%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675&epid=19051512917
Yep, this is a very common Russian brand of baking products, I have tried this solod. Go for it! Or if you see any source from Ukraine, should you like to support them, I am sure they are great too (I have some Ukrainian solod now, but don't see that brand listed on ebay at the moment...).
The aroma of red rye malt is not comparable to anything else (e.g. crystal rye that is often suggested as a substitute, is not even in the ballpark, if I am being honest), it's incredibly deep and strong, and it also adds a great colour. You need just a little of it to get fantastic flavour in a rye bread, it really makes a huge difference.
Thanks!
I will order it then.
I would be glad to order Ukraine products. Do you have a link for a source?
Update: My order out of Ukraine was processed in just 2 days and has left Kiev!
These appear to be Ukrainian brands, but not the one I have.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/325243331295?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110018%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D241432%26meid%3Ddd56d...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234515380788?hash=item369a34ba34:g:s1EAAOSwk75iXbDZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4F7gP64jJV%2FgCJtBCoWgTEW1eb8%2BawgkWB%2FitkcsLn%2Bc...
Should I find i'm too busy to bake one week i'll buy some "sourdough" bread. There are very many places which sell true sourdough but I did find myself buying one brand but after looking at the label it was a mix of yeast, yoghurt and sourdough. I must say the yoghurt did lend a very nice flavour and while it doesn't ferment the flour per se it did give a very nice sourdough tang.
If you ever do get the chance then i'm sure many of us would be grateful. and even if not everyone has the means we are a creative bunch from what i've seen and we can all learn from your experience.
P.s. Kefir from grains ferments flour but I believe it has bacteria and yeast in it. All natural.
Abe, me too. I also buy sourdough bread from time to time, especially pumpernickel, imported from Europe. There is no way I would ever be able to bake something like that at home. No way!
I never used kefir made from kefir grains to ferment bread dough, I usually use it in combination with yeast, but a friend of mine does it all the time. She never uses anything else, just kefir and flour+salt and bakes an amazing sourdough bread from scratch.
I got the temperature controller from Amazon, so I will create a new flourless sourdough starter from scratch, and maybe even bake one 100% rye and one 100% white wheat bread loaf with it, just to show how it works. OK. Thanks for the idea, Abe!
best wishes,
m.
I'm with Gary. I have a temperature controller with a light bulb in a toaster oven or cooler.
I would love to learn how to make a flourless sourdough starter. We'll figure out how to maintain 32–33 °C.
OK alcophile, I got myself the temperature controller so that I can control the temperature of my heating pad with precision and will create a couple of flourless starters with its help
- the full strength sourdough starter at 32-33C (with wild yeast and LAB from a tablespoon of flour)
and
- lactic bacteria starter at 40-45C (with LAB from crushed malt)
I will record the process and get back with the results and a full write up. OK?
I'd love to see your results.
I'd love to see your results as well, Gary. I see you got your crushed malt already. Nice! 👍👍👍
And I saw the picture of your homemade proofing box. It seems that you all drill various holes in your coolers, I did not know that! LOL
Godspeed!
Yes, my cooler was cheap so I was ready to hack it as necessary to accomplish my goals.
I just started fermentation! My cheap vacuum pump combined with the jar sealer worked great.
I'm excited to see how this turns out.
Another affordable and great idea, this time - about creating anaerobic set up in a jar, Gary. You are so smart!!! If you ever have time, please show how you do it in detail, what happens in the cap area step by step.
My oven also has Proof setting, exactly 42C/108F, perfect for this kind of fermentation. It just never occurred to me to keep my baking stone in to store heat and to even out the temperature, to narrow the temperature fluctuation range.
Do you know how much your oven temperature fluctuates at that temperature level? It can be as large as 25-50F/10-30C fluctuation during baking, i.e. 350-400F, when set to 400F, but I never measured the Proof setting.
I'll take pictures of the sealing process. Really simple;
The pump was $7 on a flash sale.
My oven is interesting. The set temperature is the highest temperature. It swings about 20 degrees F. So when set for 120F it shoots up to 120, then drops to near 100 before turning on again.But this is the temperature of the air.
What matters is the average temperature of the thing you are proofing. I floated my bluetooth thermometer in a jar of water for a full day waiting for my rye to arrive. The temperature inside the jar varied from 110 to 112F.
So, the temperature inside the jar seems perfect.
OK Gary, understood. I got confused by that thing that sits on top of the jar. This must be your thermometer. I initially thought it had to do with the anaerobic seal.
So it does fluctuate 20F, even when the temperature is that low, hmmm. Water stores heat, that's ok, I understand. I was thinking about drying homemade fermented rye malt ("red malt") prior to milling it and thought about the temperature fluctuations in a thin layer of malt on a baking sheet.
By the way, the malt on the bottom of your anaerobic jar, after fermentation, once you separate your liquid lactic acid starter to store it refrigerated, IS fermented rye malt, "solod", about which there was a lot of talk here lately. It is used in German and Baltic bread baking and in Borodinsky bread.
You can slowly dry it in your oven @ 45-90C until dry and deeply red and then mill it and use in baking. You will have a bona fide red rye malt then.
Yes, the thing on top is my thermometer. I moved it next to the jar this morning get get an idea of the gradient in the oven. There is about 5 degrees F difference between the top of the jar and the bottom (outside in the oven).
I'd love to try drying and milling the "solod" but I don't own a mill. One day maybe I'll get into that. My oven has a drying mode that should work for that.
xx
Hi Joe,
No, anaerobic set up is not needed, not at all. You can either use 45C water in a thermos, just fill it to the brim and close its top, it will keep it warm as it ferments, or in an open mouthed flask on a stirring plate, in which liquid is incessantly stirred, exposed to air. A total opposite to anaerobic, a 100% aerobic set up!
The only thing anaerobic set up achieves is protection from mold growing on the surface of the liquid exposed to the air. Malted grain usually has plenty of mold (and yeast) spores in it, so for some people, such as rusbrot, who discovered the German sourwort technique and adapted it to his moldy malt, it might be an issue - to see a film growing on the surface. Such people have to use anaerobic setup.
German beer brewers never use anaerobic set up, they always use aerobic setup. If there is no fresh air as in a closed thermos or the liquid is constantly stirred, nothing will grow on its surface either.
Below are their instructions:
Hi Mariana,
Thank you for clarifying that no air needed to be vacuumed out.
But last night I realized I had a vacuum sealer and so applied it to a Ball mason jar. I am 24 hrs into the 48 hr process.
I was thinking that if I opened the sealed jar after 24 h to add sugar, I would have to re-seal it again.
I saw 2 others say they vacuum sealed and one did not add sugar.
But now I really didn't have to vacuum seal in the first place. So it is better to add the 1 t sugar today and tomorrow and then can leave it un-vacuumed? I have it in a water bath now with the temp control and it is holding at 41-42C very well.
So far I have really liked the way clas makes ww very soft and chewy so since flas seemed to be similar, I wanted to try it on 100% ww lean loaves and see how it is.
It is really such a bonus to get expert help like this. Yippee has given me so much guidance for clas, and now I am getting answers like yours right as I am in the middle of the process.
Thanks to all at TFL!
PS I had just ordered solod from Ukraine and then saw your remark that I can dry (45-90C) the sediment from flas and it will turn into red solod. The BT proofer just makes the temp limiit at 45C so I will give it a try. Only 2 days -amazing compared to 5 days.
Hi Joe,
well, from the testimonies you can see that there is an original recipe and a lot of freedom in following it or its derivatives.
- the original Berliner method is aerobic, but anaerobic works as well
- the original Berliner method has daily sugar addition, but not adding it works as well.
:)))
From my point of view, I would follow the original recipe, the one that professional brewmeisters developed and communicated after decades of testing it. It is super easy and does not require anything, can be done in a good old thermos, something found in every kitchen. If I liked it and everything went without a hitch, then so be it. Why change anything if it works?
If there are problems, such as mildew growth, then anaerobic setup would be a solution, just placing a layer of film (saran wrap, etc.) on the surface of the liquid is ok. Then not opening it and not adding any sugar as it ferments saves you some work . Or you can keep it completely open, but stir it from time to time, to imitate the stirring plate setup.
FLAS gives you a bit more freedom compared to CLAS because it is flourless, it is a pure liquid sourdough 'essence', so to speak, there are no predigested flours involved which affect the crumb when added along with CLAS. When combined with baker's yeast, it gives you amazing baking advantages of both sourdough and yeast baking. The reliability of yeast fermentation and the depth of flavor of the sourdough, easily controlled by the amounts of FLAS added and the length of fermentation.
Brod&Taylor proofer has the entire range of temperatures, you can raise it as high as you want, you can cook food in it! So yes, dry and darken your fermented rye malt, let it mature for a while in storage, then mill it into powder in a blender or coffee grinder and use in bread baking. There are tons of good recipes of bread with red rye malt in it, both wheat flour based and rye flour based breads and rolls. I have never tried solod from Ukraine, only from Baltic countries and from Belarus.
Godspeed!
m.
Hi Mariana,
My flas was fed the sugar (2x) and it smells nice but I see the white bubbles on top. Is it safe to strain and use? After rereading all the instructions I see I forgot the apple cider vinegar at the beginning and added the sugar at 24h and 36 h mark instead of 24 and 48h. The entire brew was for 48 hr and steady at 41.5C.
Hi Joe!
Yes, it is perfectly safe to use and to taste the liquid underneath it. Just remove the top layer with a spoon and clean the edges of the jar with a moistened paper napkin (tp or paper towel).
What you have is a very common picture of a surface of a spontaneously fermented rye malt drink and some kombucha teas and fermented vegetables.
It can have a layer of a common yeast foam (brewer's yeast, S.cerevisiae), as in rye beer brew.
Or bacterial and fungal films and bubbles
I have only seen yeast foams and colonies on mine (at lower temperatures, of course, @27-35C), the remaining pictures of bubbles and films on rye malt ferments are from my friends and acquaintances.
Next time, for the next batch of FLAS, sterilize your jar with boiling water and try to use anaerobic setup, to prevent this culture growth on the surface. I am not sure it will help 100%, but it might. It would be nice to know if it would make any difference.
Thank you ! I strained and pressed out the rye and it is drying at 120f, the max temp on the BT proofer I have. Do you think it will be more developed if I am able to get it through one or more higher temp levels as some recipes suggest? I wasn’t able to before but maybe I can try again with a water bath (with some kind of addition to raise the temp)in the crockpot -with rye sealed in a jar(?). Dry it again afterwards?
The liquid is in the refrig and I will feed with sugar later today, then try a bake . I am not a great baker but any improvement is really a motivator! Thanks again!
Congrats with your first successful FLAS, Joe!
You can dry it at 120F perfectly well. Rye malt will continue to ferment at that higher temperature for a while, while still moist, just like rye malt ferments in a factory. Lactic acid bacteria are still very active at that temperature, for example, in yougurt, and the drying process will simply take a bit longer.
Just make sure you are fluffing it up and waiting for it to be thoroughly dry and rather dark in color before you take it out. Do not take it out too early.
Good luck with baking! FLAS baking is really easy, since it relies on commercial yeast or soda/baking powder for leavening, so there is no way to fail. Essentially, FLAS is a yeasted bread improver, it can be used with any yeasted bread recipe (or any sourdough recipe with 0.5% dry yeast), the best of two worlds.
Best wishes,
m.
Thank you again! I made a quick 200 gr (total flour) batch of (100% ww lean) pita with a 2h 15min ferment (28C) (dough doubled) and 30% flas (baker's %) to replace some of the total liquid; 0.6%diy (might try lower like 0.3% for clas). Hydration 85%. There was no adjustment to the recipe except in replacing part of the liquid -that was easy. The result was a nice chewy and soft pita-all ballooned :). The whole wheat was ground on 1 pass in the komo (flour still a bit coarse) but the dough was bouncy and smooth (just like a clas dough). I like that! It was a bit too sour so I will cut back the flas to maybe 20-25% (?)next time.
May I keep asking questions?
1)
From reading the posts for refreshing flas, I missed how much liquid flas (assuming no rye sediments) to add to the following:
50gr cracked malted rye
.5L (500g) water (45C)
I believe I read 6h ferment at 43C will do it. That is fast. Vacuum again? No added vinegar.
2) Could I take the rye flas and refresh it with wheat malt as well? or is it just preferable to use rye for flas?
3) Is there a general rule to convert a clas recipe to flas? (I am using 10-15% flour from clas in ww recipes) (The clas panetone recipe is really good.) Say- flas (baker's)% range as 20-30% (100% ww )?
4) There is a layer of flour settling at the bottom of the flas liquid. Should I try not to avoid getting this in the dough?
5) Is 1 month old , sugar starved flas too old to refresh?
If a loaf of bread turns out, I will write in!
Oh I almost forgot- the pH was 3.67 (day after).
Pita is good, Joe and 0.6% IDY sounds about right because it translates into about 2% compressed yeast.
Your questions about FLAS, no one can answer them, because it is not a standard ingredient in baking. It is something recently borrowed from brewers. Unlike CLAS, for which hundreds if not thousands scientific experiments were run in the lab and exact standards were developed along with recommendations for its use, FLAS is a totally wild thing. You would have to determine what works for you from experience.
1) refreshing flas, how much liquid flas (assuming no rye sediments) to add to the following:
50gr cracked malted rye
.5L (500g) water (45C)
- Any amount, you can feed it 1:20 or you can feed it 2:1, it does not matter for as long as you track its readiness by measuring its acidity and flavor to know that it is ready. It will take 3-24 hours at 40-43C
And usually just the bottom part, the sediment (the discard that cannot be used it baking), us used in refreshments. The top liquid part is used in baking.
Vinegar is not necessary. FLAS itself is a souring agent during refreshment.
You can use vacuum or any other anaerobic measures if you believe it would prevent the surface film growing. It does consume nutrients from the solution, so you would rather not feed that parasitic microorganism.
2) Could I take the rye flas and refresh it with wheat malt as well?
Of course. You can feed it with any milled or cracked cereal or flour, raw or cooked. Malted grains and malted flours are sweeter and more nutritious higher in vitamins and active enzymes, but even regular flours or even porridges or bits of baked bread would feed the eatablished FLAS microbial culture. The aroma might and will change though, but not the important part, not the lactic acid content of FLAS.
3) a general rule to convert a clas recipe to flas.
Nope. CLAS is a standard ingredient with strictly defined acidity and microbial composition levels, whereas FLAS is not. Each person in this thread created their unique FLAS by spontaneously fermenting their unique malt by using different starting and brewing conditions and proportions of malt to water...
It's exactly like homemade sourdough starters which have dozens of wild species of yeasts and bacteria in them, totally unique and unpredictable combinations of sd species in each bakery or home, with differing souring and leavening powers.
FLAS is similar to wild sourdough, very different from baker to baker, whereas CLAS is always the same.
In 100g of CLAS, proportion of water and flour is about 60w:40f, if its hydration is about 150%.
So, if your flas is as sour as the liquid portion of clas, then you would use
1.5 x (10-15%) = 15-22% FLAS in your recipes.
Whether it's enough or not (or too much) you would have to determine from experience.
4) There is a layer of flour settling at the bottom of the flas liquid. Should I try not to avoid getting this in the dough?
I would avoid it if it's old. Old predigested flour is bad news for bread dough, essentially, it's a microbial graveyard with tons of thiols in it, unless it's whole grain bread dough and there is very little predigested flour added to it.
5) Is 1 month old, sugar starved flas too old to refresh?
It depends on how diluted it was and how many refreshments you are willing to do to refresh it, to restore its microflora. People sussesfully restore their flour based sd starters after several weeks or even months of refrigeration, but it might take a dozen of refreshments and several days to get there. Basically, it's sometimes easier to start from scratch. FLAS is so easy to prepare from scratch in one step in 1-2 days
The general rule is that one month old is not as bad as being sugar starved or not well diluted. More FLAS bacteria will die from starvation and too much acidity than from their old age.
Using the Thermos was a very simple method to get refreshed flas. No appliances needed!
0 hours- 8:45pm (FRI) (43.5C)
70 gr (from refrig) of the wet sediment settled at bottom of flas liquid
50g cracked malt rye,
500 g water at 45C.
13 hour- 9:45 am (SAT) Thermos: 40.3C, pH4.0
19.5 h- 4:15 (SAT) Thermos: 39C, pH 3.8
Reaching the right temp in the thermos:
I held back about half the water and mixed water (45C), rye, cold flas sediment. It was too cool, the temp was in mid 30s. To raise the temp, I poured the liquid portion of the mixture into the water still in the pot and heated it very carefully on the stove (low setting), watching the temp probe until it reached 43.5C- it just takes a few seconds. Then I poured it quickly into the thermos, filling it to the top (about 1/4" airspace from top of liquid to thermos plug)
Opening the thermos
The tip on slowly unscrewing the Thermos is useful! - the fizz released and I hardly lost any of the contents. If there was white foamy growth on surface of flas, it came out with the release of pressure when opening the thermos.
After straining
I will be collecting the sediments (in the freezer) for processing a larger batch for solod. My first batch was still "tan" color after 48h at 120F. (I couldn't leave it unattended so turned it off.) It is very dry and in a jar-maybe I can get back to drying it more later.
Freezing
I will be trying out the flas after freezing to see how it bakes and refreshes.
Excellent, Joe. Well done and beautifully reported. Thank you!
NOTE 1. Usually, when you take a culture from the fridge, you would let it come up to the room temp or even to 40-45C in your case in 30-120 min slowly, 'naturally', so it can wake up and restore its metabolism. Only then you will feed it and place it in thermos.
I always warm the culture up slowly before feeding it, otherwise it is too much stress for it, both thermal shock and chemical shock (change of chemical environment), but most people don't.
NOTE 2. It is better to prepare a portion of true wort with water and rye malt, instead of just a quick blend, to extract its nutritional substances into water before feeding the culture. It would be quicker that way.
Method: mix 300g malt and 1L water and take it through three steps of heating: first, keep it for 30min at 45C (in thermos, for example), then 1hr at 55C (warm it up to 55C and keep it for 1 hr at that temp, for example, in thermos), finally, for 2-3hrs at 63C.
At this moment the wort is ready to be cooled to the desired temperature, diluted to the desired proportions of water to malt, and used to grow any microbial cultures: yeast or lactic bacteria. You can freeze the portions of wort that you do not need immediately for the future use.
m.
Hi Mariana,
Note 1- understood.
Could you explain what is being made in Note 2 ?
I am not sure what "true wort" means ("wort" itself is the liquid flas?)
My thermos hold 1/2 L. I will start this process:
(a) For 30 min- 8:00-8:30pm Thermos: 150g crushed malt + 500 g water at 45C (no vinegar?)
(b) For 1 hour- 8:30-9:30pm Thermos: same contents except at 55C
(c) For 2-3 hours- 9:30pm-12:30am Thermos: same contents excepts at 63C
========
"At this moment the wort is ready to be cooled to the desired temperature, diluted to the desired proportions of water to malt, and used to grow any microbial cultures: yeast or lactic bacteria. You can freeze the portions of wort that you do not need immediately for the future use."
What will I have now? Is the liquid now flas, ready to put into any recipe? If so, then this is much shorter than the 48 h method where temp is 43C. That would be great!
Thank you for all your guidance!
Joe, wort means the liquid extracted from the mashing process. It's pasteurised liquid malt extract, sweet to taste, with neutral pH. Wort contains the sugars and other nutrients, the most important being maltose and maltotriose, that will be fermented by the bacteria and/or yeast later on.
Once you prepare the concentrated wort, 150g malt per 0.5L water, you add to it 1L water and will have the target concentration of 50g malt per each 0.5L water necessary to prepare a new portion of FLAS by inoculating 0.5L of wort with some of the existing FLAS and keeping it at 40-45C for several hours.
"True wort", or wort, as is used in breadmaking and beer production is not simply water and raw malt later fermented by some microorganism(s). It's the liquid extracted from the mash, from the water+malt combo, and pasteurised at 63C.
Extraction is that heating process that I described above, it extracts nutrients and pasteurises the wort at 63C. So, there will be no competing microorganisms from the raw malt in it, only those that we want to propagate from the previous portion of FLAS.
Normally, after extraction, solid debris will be filtered out and discarded, but we may leave it in while preparing FLAS.
(a) yes, no vinegar. You are simply extracting sugars from malt, no acidification.
In NOTE2 processs you will have a ready made wort (pasteurised liquid malt extract with neutral pH) to which when you want you will add a portion of FLAS from you fridge, ferment it at 40-45C for 3-6hrs, or whatever time needed to sour it, to reach the target pH, taste and aroma, and then refrigerate the resulting sourwort/flas and use it in baking.
This is so helpful! I hope I have understood and summarized what you wrote. I am starting a collection of flas and clas notes- Thank you Yippee and Mariana!
My mistake this time was napping and letting the 55C stage go 1/2 hr too long.
I wasn't sure what the range for neutral is - 6.4-7pH? And would the range for desired acidity for flas be 3-3.5 pH or is 4.0 ok too?
Updated Instructions (9/5/22)
It's a good summary, Joe, although you do not have to be so careful with heating up or defrosting ready made wort "naturally".
It is pasteurized, has no microbes in it, so you can use any method of heating it up that you like or find convenient.
FLAS, liquid or sediment, yes, it is "alive", full of living lactic bacteria, so warming it up slowly is better.
You decide. At 3.0-3.5 there is no proliferation of bacteria. They stay alive, but their numbers do not multiply anymore. Their bottomline is pH= 3.8-4.0.
At certain level of acidity they become lethargic and barely stay alive, as in sauerkraut or pickles which do not become infinitely sour with time, as you know. There is a certain limit.
Such is CLAS, for example, it is so acidic, that its microflora is essentially dormant both at room temperature and in the fridge, and it does not keep too well in the fridge, only for a week or so. After that the microbes die out in massive amounts, irreversibly, the starter is gone, no longer "alive".
Also, at 3.0-3.5 you would use flas and clas in baking only in smallish amounts, as flavor improvers, since they are so sour.
At 4.0 - 4.5 you would have it at the normal acidity level of a sd starter or sd bread dough, so you can replace all or nearly all liquid in the recipe with flas. And it will keep very well in the fridge, for a month at least. It will become more sour with time, obviously.
Best wishes,
m.
I am understanding more and more. Thank you! Your discussions cover a
lot of new things to me.
I updated the card. Just relating the pH of flas to how much to put in a recipe was
really helpful. This morning I put too much in and the dough was a bit sour.
Dang, this sounds too good to be true but I would like to try it. I will order some rye malt this afternoon. Thanks for sharing this methodogy.
Got my rye malt today and started the brew tonight.
Had to get the water up to around 120-degree F to kick it off with a right temp in the mixture.
Didn't know 5 lb malt was made to fit a 4 qt container, it fits just about perfect.
Your starter should be about ready? How does it look, smell and taste so far?
Hi Mariana, my mash just got to the 48-hour mark this evening. I screwed up the temp for the first 8 hours with a temp of around 135-degree F so I think it might not be as good as it could be. It did not smell fruity sour like my 60% hydration SD starter, the aroma of my SD starter always reminds me of strawberries for some reason, and this mash solution did not smell anything like that. It had a strong grain smell with a hint of sourness and sweetness. It tasted like ketchup. It is quite thick so if this is the way it supposed to be then it might change the consistency of the dough if it is a 1:1 water replacement. I brewed it for 48 hours undisturbed, so I did not add sugar nor stir it. Following are some pics for your viewing pleasure.
Mash screened with yield:
It came out of mashing with a temp measurement:
Mashing with a jar of water as a temp gauge:
Ming, this is so amazing! You essentially pasteurized your mash for 8hrs non-stop (@135F it is called thermization) and made a scald out of it (starches begin gelatinizing at 55C, and you kept your mash at 57C/135F for 8 hrs) and even after that it soured! The power of the bacteria in grain!
Since you got yourself a whole 4qt bucket of rye malt, it is so beautiful!, maybe the next batch would be different.
I haven't done mine to compare, waiting for the next week for that experiment to take place. Thank you for the pictures and that unusual and bold variation in the process which encouraged thermophilic lactic bacteria to develop, similar to those in yogurt.
Thanks Mariana for some good insight of this mashing process. Unfortunately, I do not have a meter to measure the pH level of the solution, so I have to use my tongue to do that for now. I can afford a good pH meter, but I don't want to just buy one just to have one if I don't really need it. For my next mash, I think I will stir and taste it every day and of course to control the temp more accurately in the LAB thriving zone.
By the way, I said it tasted like ketchup is not quite accurate as ketchup could taste salty, a more accurate description of its taste would be like tomato juice.
I just took two pics below after it was in the fridge overnight. I drank a spoon of the solution, and it did have a little bit of sweetness to it. I think the yeast will love all the sugary substances in it, but the result will be in the bread that I bake tonight.
Mistakes, errors, forgetfulness, experimentation ... All tools in the workshop of progress.
It's done but not what I expected.
I followed the instructions as best I could.
Indications that something might be wrong.
Any suggestions?
Our tap water has lots of dissolved gases. I wonder if there was enough oxygen came out of solution and sent things in the wrong direction? I could try boiling the water first, letting it cool, and then using it.
Gary, it takes from 24 to 72 hours to develop the culture. Just give it more time and some sugar. Fizz is not a must either. In fact, it rarely happens! Maybe once every ten times. You should be ready for it, or for some of it, because you sealed your jar tightly and should take precautions when opening it, but it is not a rule, not all lactic acid bacteria produce gas.
Add a tsp of sugar or liquid malt extract, rice syrup or barley malt syrup is ok too, cover and keep at 40C for full three days, adding sugar once a day.
Anaerobic condition is not really a must, it is mostly used to avoid penicillin/mildew growth on the inner surface of the pot cover, if you cover your jar (beer brewers do not cover at all, it sits either in a thermos or open on a hot plate, stirred continuously! Very aerobic!), not because of the starter itself.
Reread the original Berlin lactic acid starter instructions, please.
I already tossed that first batch of mash.
Could I continue with the liquid that has been refrigerated since this morning?
Or should I start over with more malt?
Wow, you are fast!
Sure, continue with the liquid, Gary. It will be no different from developing a starter by a series of refreshments, feeds. It actually would work even better. One step starters are always less fragrant when compared to multiple step starters.
Use 50 g of crushed malt, a spoon of sugar and 500ml warm liquid (blend your first brew with water to get 500ml total, use clean water, demineralised or distilled is best if your tap water is not so good).
Thanks for your help.
I am sure you will have a great starter, Gary.
Just remember that by the end of the fist 48hrs of fermentation it should receive its TWO spoons of sugar, the first given at the end of 24hrs, the second - at the end of 48hrs. Since you added a portion of sugar at the end of 36hrs, add another one 8-12hrs or so later.
Sugar is essential in very liquid starters as this one, they stagnate and begin to lose potency when they run out of sugar in solution.
I've now got a starter that smells fruity and sour. I'm going to strain it and try a bake tomorrow.
I am so happy to hear these good news from you, Gary. Well done!
How does it look? Did you measure its pH or TTA?
It is cloudy after I strained it. I just used an ordinary fine strainer, no filter paper. The liquid before I poured it out was not cloudy.
I don't have equipment to measure pH or TTA. One day...
I'll see what it looks like in the morning after a night in the fridge.
Mariana, can you tell me more about your true SD flourless starters? Above you said:
How do you make and use them?
Gary,
it is really all about temperature ranges. Otherwise nothing is different from FLAS method. You could easily use the same rye malt and keep it at 28C, instead of 43-45C and obtain a true sourdough starter in the end. It would have a healthy yeast community in it, because sourdough yeasts multiply best at 28-30C (whereas lactic acid bacteria prefer 32-50C range).
So, you could try this experiment, do exactly as you do for FLAS, but set it to 28C and you will have a true sourdough starter from scratch. DO NOT close the cover tightly. Cover with plastic wrap with a small hole in it.
Now, rye is famous for being low on yeast and high on LAB, so you would do better if you add a tsp of any wheat grain, whole wheat flour (soft or hard, durum, spelt, etc) to your rye malt solution, or even a spoon of raw wheat bran would do - as a source of while yeasts. You can also add wild yeasts the way YW people do - by adding a few chopped raisins, or fruit peels.
Another way to develop a sourdough starter is to add yeasts to your already existing lactic acid starter. If you like its flavor that is (because at 28-30C OTHER lactic acid bacteria would thrive in flourless starter even if made from the same rye malt and it will smell differently). I did it once with LAS based on white bread flour (again, a very pour source of yeasts and a rich source of LAB) and it worked just fine.
I added to my LAS a few squished grapes and a spoon of spelt flour and kept it at 28C for a few hours and la voila. It became a true sourdough starter with plenty of yeast in it.
It became boozy, gassy, like sparkling wine. Such intense yeast propagation can take up to 2 days at 28C/82F if there was really zero yeasts in your LAS.
You use flourless starters in the same way you use flour-based starters. There are two ways of making bread
- straight method (starter -> bread dough)
- sponge method (starter - > levain -> bread dough)
So, you use your flourless starter
either to prepare a flour-based starter as in the recipe (or even directly mix your bread dough using flourless starter as liquid or part of liquid)
or to prepare a levain with it and from there - bread dough.
Example of flourless starter based levain: a sourdough poolish, so to speak (100% hydration)
at peak (max volume, domed top surface)
mature (flat top surface)
When you get there, I will give you specific examples.
I will also describe another, ancient, method of preparing a flourless sourdough starter by using scalded flour later. It's very good.
But for now, Gary, experiment with the two methods described above. Either use FLAS method, starting from scratch, but at 28-32C (keep it for 12hrs at 32C, then for 12hrs at 28C, alternating during the three days of starter development), or add to your existing FLAS some wheat (or wheat bran) and some fruit peels and keep it at 28 to populate it with wild yeast. Remember to add some sugar or even molasses. Yeast needs sugar.
So many interesting avenues to explore! I'm loving this.
I'm going to collect all these notes together so I can remember them as I go forward.
I've got some raisin yeast water started (first day) and I want to experiment with the FLAS to see how it affects the flavor in different amounts and with differing fermentation times of the FLAS.
A yeast water / flas combination is really interesting.
Have fun with it, Gary! Seeing how different sources of microbes and of their food in combination with temperature and hydration affect your outcomes is eye opening, but most importantly it is fun. I am more into bread than into sourdough starters, but I had to learn about them in a hard way, to troubleshoot or to at least make "normal" bread dough, and now I am glad that I did.
I tried yeast water once, for Hamelman's Swiss loaf made with 5 days old raisin water and it didn't work at all. The yeasts didn't grow enough and the bread was a failure, awful. The worst bread ever. Most likely, because the raisins were old, dry, shriveled, stone hard.
So I decided to repeat that expriment and made another batch of yeast water with the same ingredients, the same ancient raisins, at the same temperature but giving it more time. Set it and forget it! LoL. Ten days later it looked like a calm liquid in a jar, totally unremarkable, but when mixed with flour to make Swiss bread sponge, it turned out that I had a bona fide flourless sourdough starter there, in that jar. The sponge made with that YW was a true sourdough sponge, with typical flavor, aroma, acidity and excellent gassing power, good yeast and good LAB. The bread was delicious and good looking, just like in Hamelman's book, in his photos. Everything went according to the recipe, comme il faut.
From raisins and water, in 10 days at 25C, forgotten in a cupboard in my kitchen.
Afaik yeast water and FLAS combo should give you the same outcomes as FLAS with commercial yeast with one exception: the crumb might be a shade darker. Also, flas&yw combo will never have the same aromas as true sourdough, because in true sourdough yeasts and LAB live in symbiosis and produce three kinds of flavors: typical of yeasts, typical of LABs, and typical of yeasts in symbiosis with LABs. It's impossible to reproduce those aromas and tastes by blending CY or YW with LAS.
Best wishes,
m.
Mariana, I built a liquid starter. I used 50g of rye malt, 25g of whole wheat flour, 25g of raisins and 700g of water. I set my controller to cycle between 28C and 32C at 12 hour intervals for 3 days. I fed it 1 tsp of sugar every 24 hours.
It smelled bousy and fruity. I had company so I couldn't bake with it right away but I did mix 93g of the liquid with 93g of WW flour to see what it would do. It tripled in 8 hours. I then refrigerated it for 5 days and finally got to try it today.
I baked with the flour/starter combo today and the loaf tastes great. I really like the complexity of the flavor.
I'm going to try using the liquid directly next.
Thanks for the suggestion to try this approach.
You did it, Gary! Wow, you really made it. I am so happy to hear that you liked the bread!
Please tell me at what temperature did it triple in 8hrs. Was it ww bread flour (i.e. capable of rising very high at 100%hydration)? Was tripling its max volume or did you let it rise further? What was the pH value of that WWF levain after eight hours?
It obviously has yeast in it and can be used in sourdough baking, especially in rye breads with overnight warm preferments, but its value is even higher in yeasted breads.
Try feeding that flourless SD starter as well to propagate its microbial culture. Usually half a cup of the old starter is enough to make a quart of new starter.
If you like its flavor and do not want to alter it, you can use the same ingredients as in the initial batch, except for making water very warm, about 45C/115F. This is to encourage its SD bacteria, to make them multiply first.
To one quart of 115F water add rye malt, wwf or whole rye flour (or any other whole grain flour or flakes), chopped raisins, half a cup of previous starter (liquid or the sediment, the bottom portion)and keep it at 28C/82F for 3-4hrs or longer, until it feels slightly, but distinctly sour to taste and its temperature slowly drops from 115F down to 80-85F so that its yeasts may begin to multiply as well. Then add sugar and refrigerate for up to one month.
After 24hrs, use directly from the fridge, it does not need to be refreshed before using it.
How about we move this discussion to a new thread; this one has gotten really long and includes so many topics it is hard for me to find the relevant bits.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70210/flourless-sourdough-starters
This is fascinating stuff to read, Mariana. I have tossed my SD starter in the trash tonight and kicked off a new liquid sourdough starter (LSDS ?) with some rye malt and some whole wheat flour. If this works out then I will get some wheat malt for the job. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
By the way, I just got my second batch of FLAS to put away for the night. I finally got that green apple sour smell with this batch, but there was still a hint of the bad smell lingering though which I hope will go away by tomorrow when the sediment settles. Apparently, my first batch of FLAS was overcooked but surprising it still tasted sour like tomato juice, amazing stuff.
Ming, your new FLAS is beautiful! Congratulations! 💖💖💖
Bad smell is just a stage, once good odors appear it means that bad smell producing bacteria are gone, dead, lost in competition. They simply cannot survive in acidic environment.
What I do then is to whip it, to aerate it, to let the bad smell go. It usually helps, such a simple measure. I use a handheld electric mixer to aerate the starter, to carry the bad odors away with the flow of air, but a whisk or even a fork would do as well.
Interesting, thank you! I was just refreshing my CLAS yesterday and by mistake kept it a little too warm, and got a weird smell. To taste it was a little sweet (I had a little malt in there), and not sour. At first I just kept it a few more hours at the right temperature, and the acidity appeared very quickly, and sweetness disappeared. But the slightly off smell lingered, so I decided to just feed it again to make sure I got rid of any bad bacteria, and that helped a lot. But considering how easy it is to make again, I also considered just starting fresh... So do you think I could have just whisked it to get rid of the smell? I might actually do it anyway, since I'm not sure it's completely gone.
Ilya, about bad smell in CLAS. In my experience, CLAS is a multistep recipe. Even when made from pure microbial cultures, it takes three steps to prepare CLAS, so the smells are just gone naturally, due to whipping as you refresh and due to the refreshment itself which cleanses CLAS from old dough and dead bacteria.
It sounds like you are using a one step recipe or something. I am not familiar with it.
Where flour is involved, as in CLAS and other liquid or stiff sourdough starters, refreshment is always a more powerful solution to bad odors than simple whipping. Why? Because "old" flour in them is the source of bad smell as well, denatured gluten in rye and wheat in those starters.
But in flourless starters, like kvasses, where the ratio of flour to liquid is 1:10 or 1:20 and even 1:30, one step formulas work just fine and whipping or stirring gets rid of the unwanted odors.
That said, I once had a strange period when I was not able to create a CLAS at home. I spend several months and attempted several times to make it and it was not working. Bad odor persisted no matter how many times I refreshed, started anew, changed rye flours and recipes for CLAS with or without initial acidification, etc. I was not able to create a stable culture as I had before. It was as if there was something in the air that contaminated it. A scary thought. So I gave up and decided to take a break. I am not into baking with CLAS anyways, my other starters, flour-based and flourless kvass are fine, smelling amazing, so I never came back to CLAS since.
I am tempted to try it once more, with rye malt though, it is a new variation or aset of variations that seems interesting. I read about it in Andrey's blog (brotgost). http://brotgost.blogspot.com/2017/08/iii.html
I have quite a bit of diastatic rye and diastatic wheat malt sitting unused in my pantry, I might as well use it in experimentation.
Which recipe for CLAS are you using this time?
Thank you for the detailed answer mariana!
I created this CLAS using Andrey's process, but without malt (since I didn't have it then), but now refreshed it with malt (barley). Previously, back in Edinburgh I created one CLAS with malt. Even without malt with just whole rye flour it works perfectly for me in one step, although the aroma improves after the first refreshment I think, and when just created it's super liquidy, and becomes thicker after a refreshment.
When you had problems creating CLAS, did you try adding some vinegar like he suggests? And block access to oxygen?
No, Ilya, I have never tried any of Andrey's recipes or suggestions. I only had conversations with people who tried his methods in my blog and looked into his blog for the first time only when we started talking about FLAS here, to look for the original German recipe reference. He has quite a number of followers. From what they describe, they do not get a CLAS, but something else. For as long as they are happy with their bread, that is all that matters. The choice of starter doesn't matter that much. A fresh loaf of bread does.
I tried Sergey Kirillov's method with vinegar once, someone else had trouble with it and I did it to support them, to see what gives. Sergey gives two recipes for CLAS in his book, one is initially acidified (with regular sourdough starter) and another one is not. Initial acidification did not shorten the process, it still takes 4+ days and 5 or more refreshments to get there, but it gives an amazingly bright honey plum or sour plum flavor (I agree). However, in his videos Sergey gives an option of acidifying with apple vinegar.
My experience with it is described in my blog and it indeed never had much of a stink and gave me two beautiful and unusual starters, depending on his recipe's interpretation, but it never gave me a bona fide CLAS either as I get from the recipe from the Institute of Bread Technology which it not acidified with anything.
CLAS doesn't need blocking access to oxygen, it is not a requirement and never has been. Not a single one of Soviet sourdough starters is 'anaerobic'. It is simply not necessary and not possible to assure in bread factory environments where CLAS is produced and used. It is not an anaerobic culture and it is a very unpopular culture in commercial breadmaking. To this day, only one in fifty bakeries use it to make bread. Most likely, it has to do with its acid profile. All other sourdough starters have lactic to acetic acid in proportions 4:1, whereas CLAS has it in proportion 32:1. The resulting bread would be not typical in flavor or taste should you make a mistake in dosage. Most importantly, CLAS-based bread doesn't keep fresh long, mildew grows on it very quickly (due to the lack of acetic acid) as explained here. Which bakery would risk that? Sell bread that will become moldy in a day or two?
Andrey seems to have a problem with mold spores in his kitchen or in his flours and in his starters (due to the very nature of his favorite starters: CLAS and thermophilic). He does everything 'anaerobically' to avoid mold growth on his starters or on the surfaces of his kitchenware. Also, his CLAS and all his clas-based breads are obviously very vulnerable to mold growth due to the lack of acetic acid in CLAS.
Why do you think Andrey's procedure produces something else other than CLAS? Obviously the procedure is different than e.g. what Sergey Kirillov suggests with multiple refreshes, but then again, it doesn't produce any bad smells (like Sergey reported in his blog), and it gets very acidic (I don't have a way to measure, but Andrey measured something like pH 3.5 I think). Of course we don't know the exact microbial composition, so can't compare to what would be the "official" CLAS... I've never made it any other way, since I don't want to spend many days to create it :) And I have been satisfied with the bread. Particularly great to get nice white or sweet bread very quickly. So perhaps if you try Andrey's method you could compare with your own experience having done it using other approaches? I would be curious to know if I am missing out on something better, but I haven't see any direct comparisons online.
Re anaerobic conditions - it's only initially created that way to reduce growth of any unwanted bacteria or mold, however it's not really anaerobic i.e. doesn't need to be tightly covered in later refreshments. I never had any unwanted growth in the CLAS, and neither have I ever had any mold on bread made with CLAS (just like with a regular starter). It always dries out before doing mouldy, if it's not eaten quickly enough. Perhaps in a commercial setting it would be more obvious...
Thanks Mariana for the whipping tip to get rid of the smell, I will try that. For a longer term, I will need to deploy a couple of tricks to see if I can eliminate the smell altogether. Backsloping as suggested by the originator will definitely be deployed for my next batch of FLAS, and I will also try to bump the temp up a couple of degree to stay at the upper range in hope to discourage the gas producing bacteria from thriving. The last trick I was thinking about was adding some pineapple juice to the mash right from the getgo. Anyway, this is very exciting thing to explore like being a kid again playing with mixing stuff up for fun. Dang, my second batch of FLAS was really sour, there was a lemon juice like kick to it, not as mild as tomato juice like the previous one. Surprising, it was still cloudy after a night in the fridge.
Mine looks just like that.
Great, thanks for the confirmation, Gary, we are on the same boat now :).
The pH of my flas is about 3 if I'm reading this short range pH paper correctly.
Would you be able to take a clear picture? pH of 3 is extremely low!
What do you think?
Good God. That's 5 degree-vinegar. Too acidic.
Wow! Certainly close to 3.0! That's quite impressive. Can you compare it side by side to some common acidic solutions? Coca cola is supposed to be around pH 3 too. 5% vinegar should be a little more acidic than this. Orange juice should be closer to 4...
Just from what I understand, LABs shouldn't be able to go much below 3.5, so I'm very surprised and wondering about the precision of this measurement!
Know that I am just a computer guy. I'm sure I took a chemistry course and I made an A but I was a specialist at getting A's without learning stuff that didn't interest me. And the only things that interested me were computers!
This is OJ. Looks like maybe 3.5 to my untrained eye.
Both were straight from the fridge. Could temperature be affecting it?
Interesting. If anything, at lower temperature pH would be higher. But assuming it warms up on the pH strip, it shouldn't be an issue.
Orange juice usually has pH of 3.5
Your paper works just fine, Gary. It is very reliable.
I would agree. The well-regarded pHydrion brand has been around for decades. I've used it in the lab, although I preferred colorfast plastic strips (much more expensive, but it wasn't my money!).
One minor problem with strips instead of a pH meter is that colored solutions sometimes make the color interpretation difficult. A slight dilution with distilled water can sometimes help with that. As you pointed out, a pH meter has its drawbacks, too.
Just FYI I wasn't of course doubting the precision of the principle, pH paper obviously is very accurate in general. But interpreting it from a picture might be misleading, so was curious about some baseline with solutions of known pH. And I am not sure how precise it is at the end of the range it is designed for, 3-3.5 in this case... A finer gradation in the range of interest wouldn't hurt either.
Now that I see how much the strips stain things like my fingers, I wish I had gotten the plastic ones. But this is fine for my limited use.
To minimize contact with your skin, you can use an eye dropper or even a kitchen utensil to dip into the solution and touch a drop to the paper. That can also help in reading the non-colorfast paper before it bleeds.
I used the MilliporeSigma ColorpHast™ brand for strips in the low-end range ($0.03 per strip).
That is a great data point to have, Gary. Thanks.
Ming, please, be careful with pineapple juice. It is very proteolitic, destroys proteins. Since flas is a one step starter, what's inside it goes straight into your bread dough. Try adding pineapple juice to your dough and see it becoming glue. It will damage your bread, its gluten structure.
Thanks Mariana for a heads up of this potential problem, noted. I re-brewed the spent mash (strained) early this morning with some fresh water, and after about 6 hours, to my surprise there was still some FLAS to be had there albeit with a lighter color but still amazingly sour. I was not able to detect any hint of the bad smell with it so I think I will use this secondary FLAS to brew a new batch next week. I can't stand the bad smell anymore even with a slight hint of it.
Here is a pic of FLAS re-brewed from a 3-day fermented mash:
Looks good, Ming, I love it. You really are doing the right thing: good ideas, non-stop experimentation, good illustrations, clear descriptions. Nothing that stinks should be used in breadmaking. Not even stinky cheeses : ) They might be had with bread but not in bread.
Also, due to its lighter color, it is closer to the original Berlin lactic acid starter used to acidify light-colored beers. And it is more appropriate for use in white bread and rolls, of course. It won't give their crumb a darker or dirtier look.
Actually, now that you mention it, the remnant of the initial bad smell (vomit?) now kind of smell like cheese which might not be bad to have in the bread. It could also be in my head where the bad smell gets stuck while in fact there is really no bad smell left, it was long gone especially now the solution is very sour. With that said though, I would like to find ways to refine it to a point where I can only smell sour in the FLAS. Thanks.
That vomit smell is probably coming from the anaerobic bacterial production of longer-chain acids like propionic acid and especially butyric acid. Clostridium spp. may be responsible for the butyric acid (link)
Interesting. I think the bad smell could also be from the gas producing bacteria leuconostocs from what I read somewhere in this forum. I plan to do an experiment (non-scientistic of course) this weekend by boiling the FLAS in hope to remove all the volatile compounds and odors and of course will kill all the organism in it. I would like to find out if a 5-min boil of the FLAS will still have any effect in the dough and also if it can be backsloped into a new mash with a low enough pH to activate LAB quickly so other bacterial can stay inactive.
How about vitamin C to initially acidify the mash?
Sure, Gary. You can try initial acidification of the mash with anything you want, including vitamin C.
Remember though that vitamin C is unstable at high temperatures and after several days at 45C none (or barely any) will be left in the solution according to this article, which states that 2-3 days at 40-50C destroys all vitamin C in their experiments
So don't count on added vitamin C as on bread improver later on when you use the resulting soured mash/liquid in bread making.
I brewed a new batch starting with enough vitamin C crystals (about 1g) to bring the pH of the solution down to about 4. I did not vacuum seal the container but it was nearly full. No foul smell even on the first day. I could hear it fizzing on so I was assured that fermentation. I let it go for 3 days and used some today. It worked great.
Next up a flourless SD starter brewed at 28-32C.
Thank you, Gary, for this experiment! And congratulations! I am happy that it worked.
Was it 1g ascorbic acid per 500ml water? And how much rye malt? 72hrs at what temperature?
I also got a fresh bottle of vitamin C crystals to try this method. I like it better than acidifying with vinegar, for sure, or even with lactic acid. Mostly because as vit C decomposes with time, pH rises, while as sourdough bacteria propagate, pH goes down, so the solution as a whole has the pH beneficial for the good bacteria: not too high and not too low.
Have you tracked its pH daily to see how it changes? Did you notice any changes in bread dough or baked bread due to the leftover vit C in the brew?
It was a 1 pint jar nearly full. I'm guessing 400g of water. I used 25g of the rye malt. I put in about 0.8 g of the vitamin C crystals and then used my pH paper. It didn't look like it was down to 4 so I added a little more. Not very precise but my paper has steps of 0.5.
I kept it at 43.5C by putting it in our crockpot in a water bath and using the little controller.
I fed it 1 tsp of sugar each morning. That is when I checked on the smell. It never stunk. I was very pleased with that.
I just finished making it today, I will try to keep an eye on the pH though it will have to change a good bit for me to be able to tell.
The loaf I made today was a double experiment. I'm bad about changing 2 variables at once. I replaced 30% water with raisin yeast water. It turned out similar to previous loaves, though about 5% shorter (now perfect height).
So I didn't observe any effects of the vitamin C. I should not have done YW this time.
It looks the same to my untrained eye.
I think the flavor is more interesting with the YW but that was when it was first baked and bread is always better then. I'll see tomorrow if it is really different.
gb
Thank you for providing all those details, Gary! Have you checked the final pH of this batch of the rye malt brew this morning?
I wonder if you could set up an experiment to see if or how the background pH of the vitamin C solution changes with time. Just 400ml water with one gram of ascorbic acid kept for 72hours at 43.5C. Will it stay the same, decline or rise as vitamin C degrades due to heat? Your pH paper should be able to detect it.
It does degrade, but the byproduct of vit.C decomposition is a stronger acid actually, so it would be interesting to know.
The pH looks like about 3 today. I'll try to do that experiment but it will have to visit. My daughter will be visiting from Oregon in the next few days so we getting everything ready.
Is a good alternative to Pineapple juice
I noticed in a post tonight on using malt to make tea the claim that they are not "ready to eat" and must be boiled to be safe. We're keeping these malts in warm water for many hours.
I'm guessing the bread is safe after baking but we've been pretty cavalier about tasting the FLAS.
Should we be much more careful?
We aren't supposed to eat flour raw either because these days it contains e-coli.
I see that the lactic acid kills the bad organisms and we've got plenty of that.
Just like any other raw eatable stuff we just have to be careful of what we eat. I think once the pH drops with LAB presence, most other bacteria cannot survive. I read somewhere that the LAB in our stomachs can even kill the covid virus.
Got two mashes brewing right now, will have a lot of experimentation to do this week.
I'm eager to hear your results. Please keep us posted.
Finally, no bad smell for this week's brew, only green apple sour aroma emitted from the solution. I jacked up the temp to around 115-degree F and backsloped about 30% of the water with a second pass solution. It might have been fine without the temp increase, but I wanted to do everything possible to suppress those gas producing suckers. Can we call it sourwort like it was originally named by Savvas? Don't like the name FLAS, whatever :)!!!
115F, 30% backslop, how long?
I brewed it for 3 days untouched.
From what I read 'lactos' keep happy at the 100-120F range, so it sounds fine. Looks healthy too. Is the amount of backslopping arbitrary or you measured the pH? Should aim for an initial pH around 4.3. Looking forward to your bread results using it.
Yeap, I wanted to stay at the upper range of the temp, in fact, I might bump it up a couple more degree next time to stay close to the 120-degree mark so only the best lactos can survive. No I do not have a pH meter, not yet as the one I want is out of stock at the moment, so I use my tongue for now. Yeah that 30% was just a random pick. I don't think it matters much what percentage of backslope to use as long as there are some lactos in the water to kick it off. Thanks.
I'm enjoying experimenting with FLAS and have also just made my first rye loaf with SD and YW levens (rye and white) with a formula from trailrunner.
I wondering about adding FLAS to my next rye loaf in place of some of the water.
Will it work its magic?
You are ahead of the game Gary as that is what I was planning to do, the reason I just bought a loaf pan. :)
I do love my tiny pan. I can bake at least every other day (sometimes every day) and not shed too many tears when an experiment doesn't go the way I hoped.
I'm doubtful I'll be able to try rye tomorrow. Maybe Friday.
Yeap that is the reason I like this little 4"x4"x4" cube box, so cute too.
Will have to give this a try.
Hi Pane,
Could you tell me how you refresh the flas based only on the sediments that settled at the bottom of the flas? That is all I have left right now.
Thanks!