The Fresh Loaf

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Fermented (Red) Rye Malt in Rye Baker Recipes

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Fermented (Red) Rye Malt in Rye Baker Recipes

Several recipes in Stanley Ginsberg's The Rye Baker book and website use red rye malt. He uses crystal rye brewing malt in these recipes. However, there is a fermented rye malt (solod) that is darker in color than the crystal rye and has has a stronger flavor. If I use the fermented rye malt in his recipes, should the amount be reduced to account for the darker color and stronger flavor?

Also, a couple of his recipes use black rye brewing malt. Is the black rye malt correct for these recipes, or would the solod be more appropriate due to its darker color?

Thanks!

mariana's picture
mariana

I would use red fermented malt, i.e. solod, in all those recipes in the amounts indicated. It is sold in a range of colors, it is not always dark, actually, depends on the batch. Or liquid rye malt extract, it is dark and it is rye and is considered to be an appropriate substitute to solod. Only because I have both in my pantry and both are traditional in breads and give breads  their unique aroma and taste.

No dark or crystar rye malt, i.e. no dry brewers malts.

Also, it depends on the origin of the bread recipe. If the breads are from Baltic countries or Russia and even Germany, it must be solod, i.e.red fermented malt or liquid rye malt extract, if possible, and not their substitutes.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Just curious, mariana, how would you use liquid rye malt extract in place of red rye malt? E.g. in a recipe with a scald - I guess you wouldn't scald the liquid extract, would you just add it in the final dough (or pre-dough?)? I didn't realize liquid rye malt extract would work as a good substitute for RRM, thought it was just for brewing.

I agree with the main idea though, red rye malt has a unique and intense flavour that crystal rye malt just doesn't have, much more appropriate for rye bread. And it doesn't appear the amounts are increased there to attempt to account for that.

mariana's picture
mariana

Ilya, the use of the liquid rye malt extract is the same as that of solod. No difference. It was tested by the bread technologists and cereal scientists and approved as a good substitute for solod.

Proportions are found here

Basically, it's 1:1.33substitution by weight, and you need to compensate for the rye flour 1:1.

For example, in Borodinsky scald for one loaf we need 

50g rye flour

25g solod

Water, spices

We can use instead

75g rye flour (50+25)

33g liquid rye malt extract (25x1.33)

Water (25g less than above), spices

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Interesting, thank you. So these positions are for kvass concentrate if I read that right, is it the same as rye malt extract?..

mariana's picture
mariana

For Briess liquid rye malt extract yes, Ilya. It can be used as kvass concentrate as well, making an authentic rye kvass.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

@mariana, thank you for the information. That really fills in the gap of knowledge I have on the use of bread malts.

Do you have a brand of rye malt extract that you can recommend? When I search for liquid rye malt extract, I find a product from Briess Malt that is a "light golden color" (9° Lovibond). The solod is a much darker color and I would estimate that it is probably greater than 100°L. Is it possible to substitute a more readily available dark barley malt extract?

Thanks!

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, Briess. I use it and it is very dark colored and colors the bread crumb properly, alcophile. Highly diluted in beer it will surely be golden. I never tried.

Most importantly, it has rye malt aroma and taste. Dark barley malt tastes and smells like barley malt, a very distinct difference in bread. I use dark barley malt as well, but only in whole wheat recipes.

Again, if your solod is dark, like burnt dark, it's just a batch that you got. Normally it is medium dark and sometimes even on the light side of reddish brown, because it is never roasted, just dried in a warm setting.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I see that too, alcophile.  I have solod, but have used Fawcett's crystal rye malt at 80 L and ground it finely.  That's the darkest I've found.

suave's picture
suave

Liquid rye malt extract sold through the homebrewing outlets is predominantly barley, for the simple reason that it is used to make beers where rye in the grain bill does not exceed 20%. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Duh.  Right, of course.  I've seen malt bills pushing higher but the beta-glucans are a PITA.  Thanks for the reminder.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Good to know. It would take a long time to use up 3 lbs. of extract, anyway. The solod will be easier to measure, too.

suave's picture
suave

Theoretically, you can still use it, you would just have to scald differently and recalculate the amounts.  If I could get a smaller amount, like a pound, I'd totally try it.

Abe's picture
Abe

That the amount he uses is correct for solod and he just substitutes it for crystal rye malt which is more readily available. So he does a 1:1 ratio swap. 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks, Abe! I will use that info on all The Rye Baker recipes.

happycat's picture
happycat

I subbed homemade solod 1:1 for red rye malt in the rye baker borodinsky. Still a memorable bake. I really enjoyed what it brought to the bread. Kind of tying everything together nicely. There are times when I make or bake a dish and there is some ingredient that brings the disparate flavours into harmony. Fresh lemon juice often does that for me in sweet and savoury dishes. Solod did it for the bread.

My second batch of homemade solod wasn't nearly as strong and the bread wasn't the same. I made three other ryes from him and they were ok but I missed the solod borodinsky. The bread spices in the franconia were interesting and good when paired with smoked salmon... but again I wondered what solod might bring to it.

I'm surprised that his recipe (the revised one on the web) didn't mention an ingredient that Borodinskiy aficionados seem to agree is essential. Transparency in substitutions would be preferable.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I'm surprised, too, that Stan does not mention the use of solod in the recipes that require it. He discusses the use of blue fenugreek leaves for some recipes and then gives a possible substitute for that hard-to-find ingredient.

Abe's picture
Abe

He does say to use "Red Rye Malt" which is Solod. 

However I seem to remember that he sells and uses Crystal Rye Malt as a substitute for Solod. 

It seems the difference between them is Solod has been fermented to bring out a more flavour and then heat treated further to bring out a darker colour. 

Crystal Rye Malt does have a nice red colour (colour being one of the reasons Solod is added), has a nice flavour and will make a good, but not perfect, substitute. Then again no substitute is perfect. It's the next best thing. 

If you can by a rye malt that is diastatic and not ground then you can make Solod from it. Soak the grains for a few hours, drain the liquid and then ferment. Once it's fermented then dry them out, heat treat them till they turn a very dark almost coffee colour then grind. This way you don't have to malt them yourself so half the job's been done for you. 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

The color of his scald does indeed look red. The solod I have (from a fellow TFL member) produced a scald color that was the color of porter or stout. My dough looked like milk chocolate cookie dough! We'll see after a day see how the bread turned out.

Just in case, I had also prepared a scald using the Fawcett crystal rye malt that I had (from Stan's business) and it, too, was pretty dark, although not as dark as the solod scald; maybe more like an amber lager. I find that the crystal rye he sold me is more of a light brown color rather than red.

I found a couple of sellers in the USA that offer solod online. I think I'll just order some of that when I run out.

happycat's picture
happycat

The solod I have (from a fellow TFL member) produced a scald color that was the color of porter or stout. 

Sounds right. My solod scald for my borodinsky was chocolate coloured.

JonJ's picture
JonJ

How would you go about doing the fermentation step, just leave it for how long?Is there something to look for to know when it is done?

And will it be necessary to innoculate with something to kick start the ferment, or will it come from the malted rye itself?

 

Abe's picture
Abe

Since solod is fermented and diastatic rye malt (amber malts I think they are?) are just sprouted, dried and heat treated under a certain temperature I think all one does is pick up from where they left off. 

Soak for 6-8 hours. Drain then Ferment after which they're Heat Treated which makes them non diastatic. Take this recipe for instance. You'll soak the grains for 6-8 hours and drain (step 1) then skip to the fermentation (step 4) and carry on. 

The sprouting has already been done so you've skipped a few days. 

suave's picture
suave

What most people bake is Borodinsky.  In my experience, in that bread there's fairly little difference between the two kinds of malt, because 10% of sugar, some of it introduced via molasses will cover it up.  In fact it will cover up pretty much anything.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Excellent.  Thanks suave.

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

I was reading through the threads about Solod (fermented rye malt) and thought it would be interesting to learn more so ...

I bought liquid rye malt, chocolate rye malt, red crystal rye malt, rye malt and authentic Solod from Ukraine and Russia.

Before I go any further I would like to jump to the conclusion.

‘The substitutes, are a shadow of the real thing. The closest was the crystal malt, but even it was like a charred watered down version of the real thing. The authentic product has a rich deep chocolatey slightly tart flavor that is hard to believe is from rye.

I haven’t tried to ferment my own, but at $1/oz it looks like it might be worth it.

I wouldn’t even bother with the other alternatives as the really don’t even resemble the real thing.