Adjustments to bulk and proof?
I've been having issues lately with a lack of oven spring with my usual sourdough formula....loaves are coming out flat, scores just spread slightly, no ear, etc. Based on my analysis of the crumb, I decided they were over proofed.
Here's one example:
So, I tweaked things a bit in my process when I made bread yesterday, and was really happy to see these loaves come out of my Dutch ovens:
I was less excited when I cut into them this morning, and saw that I was definitely under fermented/proofed!
I know I need to make some adjustments to my process, and watch the dough more closely for signs of full fermentation and proofing, but just wanted to get some ballpark input on how much I should look at changing the timing of the bulk and proof steps. Take a look at the details below, and let me know your thoughts on how much to extend bulk and proofing times (yes, I know, go by the dough, not by the clock, but I'm trying to get some ballparks here!) :) My initial thought is that I may need up to 2 hours more bulk due to the low inoculation (I usually do 20%, but have been reducing this), and adding time to either the 75F or fridge portion of the proof by another couple of hours.
Here's the formula and process for this bake:
430g AP (Central Milling "Beehive")
490g Bread (KA)
116g WW (freshly milled)
116g Durum (freshly milled)
58g Rye (freshly milled)
120g levain (100% starter was refreshed and doubled in about three hours, used the refresh to make the levain after 4.5 hours)
830g water
26g salt
Mix all flours, water, and levain in my Ankarsrum until a dough came together. Slowly add salt, then mix on speed 3.5 for about 15 minutes (at this point I had a nice windowpane.)
Covered Ank bowl, and placed in my proofer set at 82F, dough temp was 80F at this point.
Performed a set of stretch/folds @ 30 minutes
Another set of stretch/folds @ 30 minutes
@ 3 hours after dough development, I letter folded the dough, then divided and preshaped
After 15 minutes I did my final shaping, placing dough in lined bannetons and into proofer at 78F
After 2 hours, I moved the loaves to the fridge for 1.5 hours
Oven and DO's preheated @ 550F, loaves baked @ 475F covered for 20 minutes, uncovered for 25 minutes
Thanks for slogging through all of this, and for any thoughts/input. I've been in a slump, so happy to have achieved some spring again, but now need to dial in the fermentation/proofing for better final crumb.
Rich
Then best not to score at all as it'll only further inhibit oven spring. The problem might also be the scoring itself (even if not over proofed). Try an experiment and proof seam side down so the seam acts like a natural scoring. If this solves the problem then it points to the issue being the scoring itself.
Agreed... the second photo looks a tad over (in which case it would have benefitted from no scoring).
The bottom photo is more than a tad under (played it too safe).
Thanks, Abe, though I think both of these breads illustrate that I'm either rusty at reading dough progress, or I wasn't that good at it at all! :)
This latest one I think I dug a hole when I decided to reduce the inoculation AND keep the same times/temps....
Rich
From what i've seen you've been baking some marvellous loaves. We all have set backs. That over fermented loaf looks very tasty. I don't think it's too over fermented and if not scored it would have risen more. You just played it too safe on the other one after having a very minor set back on the previous loaf.
....of self-deprecation, Abe! :) That was mostly tongue-in-cheek, though with a grain of truth in there, too, I'm sure! :)
R
Rich, have you considered the possibility of a bad bag of flour?
This type of crumb seems unusual for you. The thought that you would grossly over ferment one, then grossly under ferment the next bread appears highly unlikely. Looks like a modest ~70% hydration.
I’d bet that this bread tasted great, though. With the slight exception of the large hole, the cell structure of this crumb is nice, IMO.
This one has a thick dull crust which also points to over fermented.
NOTE: I had intended to attach this to Dan's comment above, but I missed! ;)
1. Bad Flour? - Maybe....one thing that I noted with the first 1/2 of this 20lb bag is that the protein content is relatively low. I had been using VWG at 2-3% to boost that, and recently have been using the KAF bread flour roughly 50/50 instead of the VWG. Bad flour is possible, and easily testable by grabbing a bag of KAF AP from a reputable source.
2. Starter? - Yeah, this bugger is cranking along. I thought of that as a possibility, too, and ran through some tests with various feeds, etc, and he passed each with flying colors! (Pic of one of my experiments)
3. Water? - Same old Redwood City tap water that I always use, and I even checked with the city to see if they had switch supply due to maintenance or some other reason......nope.
4. Proofer? - I have not checked it, and I will. I suspect this is not it, as the dough started at 80F, and was ~81-82F the remainder of the times I checked while the proofer was set at 82F.
It is a bit maddening, but I'll get it sorted, I'm sure. And, yes, that bread was tasty! :)
Rich
Rich, perhaps some photos and an explanation can add to the discussion. I agree with all of the comments above and merely want to add another voice to the effort to improve bulk fermentation and proofing.
Here is a link to a post in which I went step-by-step through the process of making some bread. https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64305/tartine-basic-country-bread If you scroll down around the middle of the post, you will find photos of the bulk fermentation stage and a description of what I look for in deciding when to move on to the pre-shaping step.
Let me know if you have any questions. Happy Baking!
Ted
Thanks, Ted, I'll take a look through that post once we're done with dinner tonight......fortunately, I've got a pork roast in sous vide, so my only "effort" is to fire the grill for searing! :)
Appreciate you sharing that!
Rich
I just had a chance to read through your post, and wanted to say thanks for taking the time to put that together! Very clearly written, and the photos were great to add visuals to all the steps. What a great tutorial, Ted!
Rich
That blog took a bit of time to assemble and post, and I am glad that another person has benefited from the effort.
Happy Baking!
Ted
Rich this can happen to any of us at times so I wouldn’t feel too bad about it. You’ve reduced your inoculation by 50% so your fermentation will need to increase for sure compared to what you’re used to. What was the reason you reduced your inoculation of levain out of curiosity?
This is the type of thing that I find can be helpful to use either an aliquot jar to measure rise or pH. If you’d used an aliquot jar, you could have a very very good idea of the rise you attained for each of those bakes. Knowing that the first was a tad overfermented and the second a bit more underfermented you could then set an aliquot jar rise somewhere in between closer to the first than the second. Regarding pH for those of us inclined to buy a meter. I have found the following, measure pH after dough fully mixed. Then I aim to shape when the pH has dropped by 1.0 and then finally bake when the pH has dropped a further 0.3.
This would be a shot in the dark guess of adding 1-2 hours in bulk. Totally a guess.
Benny
I appreciate the comments, Benny, and don't worry, I'm not that down about it. Especially since I know we'll figure it out. I had reduced the inoculation after I have three over fermented loaves in a row using similar timing to the above thinking that maybe my starter at 20% was really chewing through the dough too fast. I know I should try not to change too many things at once, so I'll stick with what I have in the formula now, and think your idea of the aliquot (or similar) jar is a good one. I think I just emptied a spice jar that should work just fine.
I have a pH meter for cheese making, but I'm not sure that the tip on it is suitable for dough, I'll have to do some research on that and see if I can use what I have, or if I need to grab a new tip.
Thanks for your thoughts on time to add (I know it's a guess), I think I'll do a single loaf batch next, and use one of my clear 4qt containers for bulk so I can see the dough while it develops.
Rich (undaunted)
Consider removing about 30 g of dough after mix and placing it in a small container. As long as your pH meter tip can get to the dough you can measure pH. So long as you can clean the dough off you should be fine. Wetting the tip prior to inserting it into the dough will lessen the dough from sticking and shouldn't greatly affect the reading.
Just marked up a spice jar at 10ml increments for a makeshift aliquot jar. Should work fine! If I can get some reliable readings from the pH meter, that will be a bonus......I need to verify that it's still in good shape (haven't used it in a while, so hopefully the storage solution is still doing its thing.)
Rich
Ok, so I halved my batch, and went back to my "normal" 20% inoculation. I refreshed my starter @ 30:60:60, and just shy of 4 hours it looked like this (started at 125ml, so moving at its usual pace):
I had autolyzed my whole grain flours for a couple of hours before that, so got everything in the mixer, and went about 11-12 minutes until I had a good windowpane. I moved the into a clear poly container for bulk, and put it in the proofer at 75F (again, going back to my "normal" temps.) Earlier, I cleaned out a spice jar, and marked my tape at 10ml increments. I dropped a small piece of dough in there and it leveled at 20ml, so for 55-60% rise in bulk I'm looking for it to get to 31-32ml:
......and, now we watch and wait! :)
Rich
Ok, so I may have cut this off early, but I figured that my measurements and eyeballing had a decent margin of errorr, so getting to 30ml in the jar after four hours seemed like a good place to cut off bulk. The dough was quite warm, and more sticky than usual (really fought me getting out of its container!) I got it shaped, and decided that I should go straight to fridge proof after final shaping, so it's napping now......will bake in the am. Stay tuned!
Rich
Looks good Rich, a 50% rise is plenty for shaping.
Well, my ego is about as deflated as my loaf appears to be this morning. Definitely not the result I was looking for, but I remain certain that I can dial this in again. I did go back to my "standard" formula for this loaf, so here are the details for this bake:
215g AP
215g Bread
58g WW
58g Durum
29g Rye
120g levain
397g water
13 salt
Total Flour = 635
Total Water = 445
Hydration = 70%
Whole Wheat = 27.5%
As posted yesterday, I bulked for about 4 hours and had reached ~50% rise per the aliquot sample. I shaped and immediately put the loaf (in banneton, in plastic bag) in the fridge overnight. I baked the loaf this morning at about 8a, so that means the fridge time was ~12 hours. Baked at 475F on my stone with an inverted roaster for the steam portion. A note for Abe, I suspected that this one was over proofed, but I scored it anyway just to finish off this experiment. Assuming that my aliquot setup was anywhere near accurate, I think that I can safely assume that I need to dial back on the proof time after shaping. Yesterday was not an ideal day for me to run this experiment, as we had family at the house most of the day, for dinner, and until a bit late, so I could not dough watch. I'm going to take a break for a few days since I've got a ton of cooking to do, and I need a bit of a break from trying to figure this out. As always, I'd be happy for any comments, insight, thoughts, etc.... :)
Some pics for reference.........
Proofed dough in banneton:
Scored and ready to bake:
Sad reveal in the oven:
Finished result:
Rich, I know you’re disappointed, however, I rather eat an overproofed bread any day and I’m sure that loaf tasted good. I’d say check your refrigerator temperature and make sure it is < 5°C so that it doesn’t ferment too much in the fridge or cut back to 40% growth in the aliquot jar.
Anyhow, enjoy your Christmas and Happy Holidays.
Benny
Appreciate the support, Benny, I really do. ....and, yes, this loaf was MUCH better than that last one I did that was under fermented! To close the loop, the crumb shot is below. Definitely over proofed, but the flavor is spot on, so closer..... :)