You've Just Made Your First Starter & Your Dough Turns To Mush
So you've just spent a week or two developing your first starter using one of the myriad of recipes out there. You might have been lucky and it went with ease or you struggled but finally got it off the ground. Finally after many days of feeding this new pet, and spent more time and energy than you care to admit on flour and water, it is now bubbling up on cue every time it is fed so you start eyeing up your first sourdough recipe feeling slightly ashamed at the times you lost patience over this inert wet flour. You follow the recipe meticulously, feeling professional when performing the stretch and folds, finding a warm place for your dough to rise and when it comes to shaping... your dough has turned to mush. Aaaargh!!!!
This post is to tell you you're not alone, it is quite common and not to worry.
Starters can do strange things in the first few weeks. Indeed some have it easy and everything falls into place for them (not because of their expertise) and others seem to run into trouble every step of the way (not because they're any less talented). You're at mercy to the flour you are using, geography, water, temperature... and whatever microbes take up home in your starter. Now all too often the newbie to sourdough will interpret a starter which bubbles up on cue and appears healthy to be able to leaven a bread. This is just one indicator. There are a lot of microbes that can make your flour and water mixture bubble but how do we know a starter has stabilised enough to make a sourdough bread? This is where a levain build will help!
A levain is basically an off-shoot starter which goes into the dough. A starter is whatever is kept behind to keep the process going. Think of a levain as a sourdough poolish. It serves a few purposes building enough starter for the recipe, bringing your starter in-line with the recipe (flour and hydration), balancing the flavours etc. And like a poolish a levain should also have built a good gluten network by the time it should be used. You can now use this to your benefit to see if your starter is ready.
I propose either a switch in your feed or an off-shoot feed (a levain) and see how your starter reacts. All too often we're only looking at the bubbles but this time you should also be looking at the gluten formation! For example...
- 10g starter
- 50g water
- 50g bread flour
Either as a starter feed or as an off-shoot starter (levain) and leave to mature for 12-14 hours at room temperature.
If the levain has turned to mush then your starter isn't ready. Carry on feeding it and try again in a few days.
If the levain has developed a good gluten network then it will do so in your dough as well! Your starter is ready and you can use the levain in a dough.
You mean like this hot mess I made today? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trgqzdImu8g
Jokes aside, thank you for this post. It really helped to read this. I was very frustrated and was coming here to update my thread when I spotted this from you. I am feeling more positive now and will keep at it instead of pouring out my starter.
Your point about the quality of the levain is a good one. Mine does triple in size at about 12 hours, but if I put a spoon in it instantly deflates down to starting height. There is very little gluten development. I guess this is what's going on with mine.
You are experience quite a common problem. First of all I think you're jumping ahead. Even when you judge your starter to be ready the recipe you're following isn't something i'd recommend as a first try. I'd keep it much more simple and really drop the hydration. That aside I think a switch in your starter feeding will help.
Is your starter seemingly healthy and bubbling up every time it's fed?
Sorry Abe, I think I edited my first post while you were typing yours. My starter is tripling in size by the 12-hour mark, but it is not stiff or strong like you mention above. If I put a spoon it it it instantly deflates completely. But I suspect it is getting stiffer because I noticed that it felt different today. I will keep feeding per your recommendation and will report back. Thanks again!
When a 100% hydration levain has developed a good gluten network you'll know. If you try and take a spoon of levain to see if it floats it won't come apart easily and will hold itself together. If it cuts through like porridge it's breaking down.
That's exactly what it's doing. It rises nice and tall but turns to liquid as soon as the spoon hits it. I guess that confirms it. Will keep going!
To be fed twice a day, as above, if it bubbles up and peaks within 12 hours and test each time just before you feed again.
You've come this far don't give up.
My SD starter is the same, it is tripling daily and would deflate quickly when I poke it. I think this has nothing to do with its strength, it has more to do with the flour and the strength of gluten network. I am using AP flour and a little bit of rye to culture my starter but I notice if I use whole grain and bread flour, the gluten network would be much stronger, actually it was so strong that I was having a hard time getting it out of the jar.
with Mark's starter is the starter turns the gluten to mush. It can happen when a starter is young, too acidic, not enough yeast population etc. It's not that his starter is deflating but has no gluten. Once he has issues getting it out of the jar then the problem will be solved.
Thanks Abe for trying to help us sourdough starter newbies here. My SD culture is about 2 months old and it seems to have plenty of strength to leaven bread even though I have been getting some inconsistent results. It has been quite a bit of learning experience for me in the last 2 months making SD baguettes. I have gone back to using instant yeast to make baguettes last week and just couldn't be happier. I was using a poolish preferment before but last week I used a biga preferment for the first time and was shocked that it tasted so much better. I have been using Kamut flour and apparently the sourness of the SD was masking its true favor as I was not able to get a true taste of it until last week when I used a biga preferment which for the first time I was able to taste the sweetness and smoothness of this ancient grain. Using a SD starter in place of commercial yeast is certainly interesting but I think its sourness is probably not for my liking. My SD culture has been my baby and I am not sure how and if I want to get rid of it, I might keep it in the fridge for a while so my bond with it will fade gradually.
For those who want to get a true taste of some grains perhaps use a yeast that is not sour, jus a thought.
It's a misconception that naturally leavened bread has to be sour. Sourdough is more about the process than the final bread being sour. Indeed there are a lot of questions on this site about how to make ones sourdough taste more sour and vice versa. It all depends on how your starter is maintained and used in the final dough. I fully agree with you that flours like kamut don't benefit from a tangy taste and it clashes with the natural sweet taste of the flour. If one uses a well fed starter/levain and doesn't allow it to overly mature it won't be sour. Now that you have a starter you can play around with the flours, timing and hydration to bring out more or less tang. Forkish has a recipe called "Double fed sweet levain" which does just this. Another option is a fruit yeast water. A wild yeast that lacks the sour components a sourdough starter has. It is a wild yeast that's easy to make from fruit, fresh or dried. Doesn't need any feeding when cultivating the wild yeast either. something you can use for flours like kamut when you want the sweeter flavours.
How would you rate the condition of this starter?
I used:
30g starter
60g bread flour
60g water
This is how it looks at the 12-hour mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6eP3qjn-I
Flour used, what type and which brand, how warm?
This is a 1:2:2 feed which 8-10 hours would be about average. And if the flour is weak it might be typical of what you're experiencing.
The flour is Robin Hood Bread flour. It appears to be ~13.2 % protein.
Temperature is difficult to say, it's on the warmer side, probably around 24-26°C I'm working on getting a thermometer. :D
So that just leaves us with a small feed and left too long.
How about you take some of the starter in the video and feed it:
Room temperature, try and find a place in your home which is about 21°C, and left for 12 hours then post a repeat video. Or if it peaks earlier then do a repeat video as soon as it peaks.
I'm in the UK so expect a delay in my reply.
The temp is a big challenge for me. My house is 17-18°C these days. The only solution I was able to come up with was placing my starter on top of the toaster-oven and keeping the oven idling low, the top is just warm to the touch. But I'll try that feeding. Thanks again!
Okay, so I've done two feedings per your instructions and it is completely different now! WOW! It smells very similar to yeasted bread but with a touch of yoghurt. The texture is so much denser, and more like we see in videos!
It would seem that the key is to use a lower starter/feed ratio? I never realized this! To this point I always used way more of the old starter, erroneously believing it would give the starter a fighting chance. Seems the opposite is true!
The texture here is NIGHT and DAY! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEMZi4AeN2s
Incredible. Very interesting, the science behind all of this. Exciting even. :)
I think your starter just needed more time and healthier feedings to correct itself. Once a starter is firing on all cylinders then a levain build of 1:2:2 should be fine but one should also take into consideration the temperature and time. For now this is your maintenance and levain feed.
Repeat this feed the evening before you wish to bake. [The more times you can repeat this feed before baking the better I think].
Allow to mature for 12 hours or until peaked. Then take off 100g to use in this recipe...
Recipe:
Method:
With the remainder 10g starter feed it 50g water + 50g flour; allow to double then refrigerate. We'll decide what to do with the starter depending on how this bread turns out.
Awesome! Will do. I'll let you know how it goes.
One question, can I get the same results using the standing mixer? I tend to prefer using the mixer simply because my quartz countertops are like ice blocks and working dough directly on them makes the dough very cold. I tried on a cutting board but the dough tends to stick. Maybe I'll just put on a hot fire on bake day...
Stand mixer is fine to use. At this point we just want a loaf of sourdough bread. No need for anything fancy like high hydration with stretch and folds. All you want is a tacky but not sticky dough kneaded till full gluten formation.
If you do use a mixer then it won't need as long for full gluten formation.
Okay, so I did your recipe. I kept the starter going with the 1:5:5 as you suggested. It seems to have slowed as it takes maybe 18 hours to peak. It's tough to gauge because I have no temperature control.
The dough at 250g water was super dry so I added water little by little, I probably ended up somewhere around 280-300g.
The bulk fermentation took all day. By evening, it had only grown maybe 20-30%. I shaped it and put it in a banneton and allowed it to proof for 3 more hours, and it looked dead. Zero activity. So I put it in the fridge overnight since it was midnight by this point.
This morning, I allowed it to warm up for about an hour. When I took the dough out of the banneton, it seemed pretty flat on the bench, and of course I forgot to take a pic.
It sprung more than last time in the dutch oven, but it's still pretty flat.
Is it safe to assume that my starter is still too weak, despite rising well and looking good in the jar?
If the starter is 100% hydration (50g water + 50g flour) and the final recipe was:
Then the final dough hydration would have been 60% at the lower end, if not altered, and it ended up being somewhere between 66% to 70%. Reason being was the whole wheat. Started off planning to make it an all white so 60% hydration might have been ok but the whole wheat would have made it very dry. But going by feel is good and I purposefully advise starting off as a dry dough and slowly working up to what feels right because all flour is different plus it allows one to develop a feel for a dough. As a general rule tacky but not sticky is a nice hydration.
1:5:5 should peak between 12-14 hours at room temperature. But as always one can expect variation as all starters are different. However at 18 hours your starter does seem very slow unless your place is very cold.
It does look like a step in the right direction but needs improvement. Let's see what the crumb and taste brings.
Yes, it is definitely a huge improvement. I did make one little mistake, I used 450g of flour. Also, I used Five Roses never bleached AP flour (13.3% protein), because I ran out of bread flour and we are quarantined so I can't leave the house to get more. I can't tell the difference between AP and bread flour anyway, maybe because the protein levels are the same in Canada? I don't know.
The crumb is much softer than the last time. It looks decent to me, just lacking rise and painfully slow to bulk and proof, despite keeping the bowl slightly warm over the toaster oven. I received an instant read thermometer for xmas today so I will be able to better monitor temperature.
The flavour is really, really nice. I'm actually a bit shocked. My father in law sent a chunk of his sourdough bread today so I was able to compare them back to back. His recipe is basically the same as the one you posted, but with no whole wheat. He gets a great rise and a nice crumb, but I felt that my loaf had a great deal more flavour, especially in the crust. Sourness is present but light, as compared to my previous attempts. I really like the balance this way.
That is a very decent crumb. A crumb I aim for! Looks tasty, is tasty. Nice colour on that crust too. Your starter works and that is the main thing. Produced your first sourdough loaf which looks excellent. Big step in the right direction.
Now we have to figure out why it's a little slow and why the rise could be better. For now carry on giving it some TLC until the next bake. Perhaps with the feeds do 50:50 bread flour and whole-wheat flour and when you're ready to try again we'll come up with another plan/recipe.
Bon Appetit.
Yay! I'm very happy with the result. Though I was a little bit bummed when I took off the lid of the dutch oven, I really can't complain, especially after tasting it. It's really, really nice. I will take the starter out of the fridge in a day or two and get back on the feeding schedule. Thanks for your help on this.
All your hard work has definitely paid off. It could be the nature of your starter is that it's slow. Not a bad thing as everyone's starter is different. As you bake with it you'll get to know how your starter behaves. We might be able to get it to speed up but if not then you'll know it needs a longer ferment or you'll use a higher percentage in a recipe. Take a break, enjoy your loaf and we'll continue when you're ready. What's most important is that you enjoy the loaves it produces. Taste is the main thing. Ready to try again whenever you are.
Merry Christmas.
P.s. looking at the crumb again and it is excellent.
Mark, Five Roses AP flour is 12%protein
https://www.bulkbarn.ca/en/products/all/five-roses-all-purpose-flour-310
RobinHood Best for Bread flour is 13%protein (about 12.8%, 12.3-13.3% range), it is both unbleached and a little bit darker, creamier in color, more fragrant in bread than FiveRoses, because it has higher ash content (more bran).
https://www.flourconfections.com/keynote-stong-bakers-bleached-flour-20kg-robin-hood-p-8740.html?currency=CAD
I find RobinHood Best for Bread flour better suited for sourdough starters, because it is stronger. As for bread, both fours are perfect, but FiveRoses gives more tender bread because of its lower protein content.
Mark, that is a beautiful loaf, nothing wrong at all, so well done. The nutrition listing on our labels are very very poor. The protein is always listed a 3 or 4 g per 30 g. As such, there is major rounding error for protein information on the labels. If you really want to know the protein you’ll have to look at the websites of the mills or contact them. It is really unfortunate that they don’t list it more accurately for us baker.
Anyhow, you seem well on your way now so happy baking. Keep getting that starter stronger with regular feedings.
Benny
Edit: I removed this post. I didn't mean to high jack this thread. I'll repost this in its own thread. Thanks!
But still a good idea anyway as a new thread will get more attention. I've posted a reply on the other thread.
Just made a starter with KA AP White flour, 100% hydration.
Used this on day 7 into this bake. Retard was 15 hours in fridge.
20220106_111401.jpg
20220106_124617.jpg
Great oven spring with a perfect crumb! And for a seven day old starter that's very good going.
Bon Appetit.
Do you have any suggestions for feeding/usng a 100% rye starter? "The Rye Baker" suggests 1:10:10 feedings. When I tried this I got no visible development over 12 hrs; maybe it needs more like 24 hrs. I went back to a 1:2:2 feeding. My final dough (including a previous 12 hr levain build that looked just like a yeasted poolish) started OK but just got weaker and weaker during bulk fermentation and folds. Ultimately, I poured what had become thick batter into a loaf pan and got some oven spring and an OK open crumb.
Thanks
And i'm only guessing here... you might have misjudged when the starter/pre-ferment was ready and fermented a high proportion of the flour till it was over fermented and too acidic which then had an effect on the final dough.
Photos really help in a situation like this. Try a 1:2:2 feed then take photos at the 4, 6 and 8 hour mark. Within this timescale i'd expect a 1:2:2 feed to mature.
A 100% hydrated rye starter should rise. Yes, a lower hydration rye dough will expand differently to a similar hydration wheat dough. At the final dough stage it might just swell and crack but it often (depending on the recipe) won't double. But a 100% hydrated starter should rise.
Let's see what your next feed does and take it from there.
I'm going to take a step back and try to strengthen my rye starter. I did the 1:10:10 feed per "The Rye Baker" and I'm going to wait it out 24+ hrs until it shows signs of vigorous activity.
recomended by The Rye Baker a starter maintenance or a levain type build? Which recipe are you following?
This is what he recommends for starter maintenance. I'm trying to use his starter with Hamelman's Pain au Levain with Whole Grains. I am trying simpler and simpler recipes (eg lower whole wheat % and no rye yet except the starter) until I can get one to work. He does mention that the LAB builds up between feedings.
I'm going to wait and see when the starter peaks after the 1:10:10 feeding (I'm guessing 24-48 hrs) and then use it in an overnight levain and mix the final dough the next day.
Here is the text from "The Rye Baker"
rye starter refreshment.jpg
Once you think your starter has fully matured, take a little off and convert it to a stiff starter Hamelman calls for in his recipe...
Suggested Build: (increase proportionately if you need more)
Start early morning and it should be ready to begin the pre-ferment that evening 12-14 hours later. It should have at least doubled but will probably triple or more.
Then go onto Hamelman's pre-ferment using however much starter you need.