The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Rye breads

carthurjohn's picture
carthurjohn

Rye breads

I am rediscovering artisan rye loaves after being away from bread baking for several years.

I would like to know who are the best modern rye bakers and where I can find their recipes. Also whethere it's possible to make rye breads from poolishes or bigas.

Abe's picture
Abe
carthurjohn's picture
carthurjohn

Many thanks for that link!

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I'll second that recommendation. Be sure to look at the links to blogs on the theryebaker website; many of them are European bakers. I think Europeans appreciate rye breads more than Americans do.

albacore's picture
albacore

To get the best from rye, you really need the acidity of  a rye sour starter, usually at a high percentage of prefermented flour. Biga and poolish are unlikely to give good results, because the dough will lack that acidity.

Have a look at www.homebaking.at for a modern European selection of rye (and wheat) recipes.

Lance

squattercity's picture
squattercity

Here's what I've learned by doing -- and reading TFL -- over the past year.

--any bread that less than 35 to 40 percent rye can be made with a biga or poolish. A good example would be Rose Levy Beranbaum's deli rye -- 20% rye and made with a sponge and quite good.

--any higher percentage ryes will benefit from a sourdough base. You can add yeast later on in the process (as the rye baker does in the formula of his excellent 90 percent rye Berliner Landbrot) but the long ferment with a sourdough base does something to the starch structures and flavor that a sponge or biga or poolish never will.

Rob

carthurjohn's picture
carthurjohn

Great - many thanks for that link!

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads includes a few recipes for rye breads that use a biga. There is an enriched sandwich bread with 40% rye that uses a whole wheat or bread flour biga. The book also has a 33% rye hearth bread also with a bread flour biga. All the recipes in this book with higher amounts of rye flour require the use of a starter, as Lance has noted.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

YouTube channel and blog contain a wealth of information on rye bread. There you will find delicious rye bread recipes using traditional sourdough and unconventional techniques. His recipes provide precise instructions so that even an inexperienced rye baker like me can make high-quality rye bread. By making Rus Brot's rye bread, I improved my skills in baking rye bread quickly. Now I can easily handle any rye bread recipe. You can see my progress in my blog entries starting from 20180812.

Yippee

carthurjohn's picture
carthurjohn

That's a great resource - plus lovely to hear Russian spoken (one of my favourite languages!)

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Since you mentioned biga and poolish, I'd like to draw your attention to a technique that Rus Brot advocates, which creates far superior results than traditional methods. It's called "concentrated lactic acid sourdough" (CLAS), please see here and here for details. I'm a huge fan of this technique. I consider it the fast track of making delicious/excellent bread of all kinds. Do check it out.  

Yippee

Abe's picture
Abe

A scald goes a long way in a rye bread and if you don't have a sourdough starter then adding an acid is always an option. I have successfully used kefir (made from kefir grains i.e. true kefir) mixed with flour to make a lovely starter which has the characteristics of sourdough with all the benefits. 

There are some lovely rye breads out there which aren't 100% rye but does make up a significant percentage of total flour. 

carthurjohn's picture
carthurjohn

Interesting! I have used a scald with barley flour, but never thought of using it with rye. 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I am intrigued by your use of kefir. Can you share some details of your method or a recipe?

I love kefir, but I buy the commercial Lifeway brand, which claims to have active cultures. Are you implying that commercial kefir will not perform as well as homemade cultured kefir?

Thanks!

Abe's picture
Abe

Take a standard sourdough recipe:

  • 500g bread flour
  • 350g water
  • 10g salt
  • 100g levain

To make the kefir starter simply swap out the levain for the following build:

  • 50g flour
  • 50g kefir

Allow it to fully mature overnight and use as normal but watch the dough and not the clock. 

Kefir has very similar cultures to a sourdough starter. I mention "Made from Kefir Grains" as that is the authentic kefir. I'm not sure what the subtle difference is when they say "Fermented using Kefir Cultures" but I gather one can also make kefir using the end product as a starter rather than using the grains as a starter. Could also be they simply add in the cultures found in kefir. 

I specify "Made from Kefir Grains" as i've had the best success with this and only recommend what i know works and has been tried and tested by me. However i've looked at the Lifeway brand and while it doesn't say "Made from Kefir Grains" it does give a list of cultures that seem authentic. You can put it to the test... make a levain and if it matures like a starter then it's fine. 

albacore's picture
albacore

I think Kefir grains produce Kefir with a lot more different bacterial and yeast cultures compared to Kefir made from a powdered starter culture. Therefore, Kefir from grains is considered "healthier" - rightly or wrongly.

Having said that, I recently had a try at making kefir from grains and didn't have any success. It fermented, but seemed to go very quickly during the fermentation from a "tastes and smells like sour milk" stage to a highly acidic curds and whey product. Having wasted about 3 litres of organic milk on it, I gave up.

We are drinking some nice tasting Latvian kefir at the moment. Personally I prefer the mild, smooth, non-globular, non-fizzy version, so maybe that is the cultured version.

I intend to try a reculture with some of the kefir and see how it ferments.

 

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe

Is this one: https://www.nourishkefir.co.uk/product/organic-fermented-kefir-drink/

They also have starter culture if you wish to make it yourself but their ready to buy kefir is made from grains. It's ever so slightly fizzy (which I like) and if you add something to sweeten it up it tastes delicious (I don't like plain 'yoghurt'). This is the one i've had the best success with when using it to make bread. 

I did try making a starter with a kefir yoghurt from this company: https://www.yeovalley.co.uk/things-we-make/kefir/ but had no success. Don't wish to imply it's not what it says on the tin but that is my experience. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I've made kefir long ago, back in Russia - my grandma got the grains from somewhere and started it, and I got some offshoot grains from her. What's the timescale for "very quickly"? From what I remember, for me the best results were about 24 hr fermentation at room temperature (it of course depends on the volume/amount of grains, etc... I think I was doing 0.5 or 1 L of milk at a time). Then it needs to be strained and go in the fridge, otherwise by 48 hrs it got too sour and started separating. I could still drink it, but not as nice. It's been a while, don't really remember the details so well...

albacore's picture
albacore

I think it was an overnight thing, Ilya. I can't remember exactly, but I think I probably started fermenting in the morning. In the evening I got the disgusting sour milk aroma and taste, so I left it fermenting overnight and ended up with the curds and whey in the morning. Maybe I had it too warm - I think it was about 21/22C.

I've also read that commercially, if using grains, they make the kefir, then filter out the grains and then ferment more milk with that filtered kefir to produce the final product.

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Interesting! Certainly different from my experience. Maybe you were just using too many grains... I must have kept it at a similar temperature, not colder. Perhaps different grains behave differently too.

If overfermented it certainly became unpleasant, even got some bitter taste at some point. But pretty sure the optimal cycle was around 24 hrs for me.

Abe's picture
Abe

However i'm sure there's a correct amount of grains per litre of milk, fermented till the taste is right for you which is  typically 12-24 hours depending. Then the grains are filtered out and the kefir refrigerated. Refrigerate the grains in a little fresh milk for storage. The grains do multiply and should either be thrown away, as you don't want to ferment kefir with too many grains, or given away. 

It's quite a quick process and if bitter i'm assuming it's been left too long. Might be a good idea to look for videos and webpages on "recipes" for making kefir. I've seen a few and I don't remember anyone doing half a ferment with grains and the rest with milk. Nor do I remember anyone experiencing curdled kefir.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Because we all have so many cultures in our kitchens I found that contamination made it impossible to have kefir turn out right. I did have a great experience with it becoming Viili !!  You can actually buy a culture for that. It is  so much better than most soft cheeses and incredibly easy to make . It needs cooler temps for one thing which made it so easy to make. Overnight my kefir  would clump into these beautiful soft curds which I drained in cheese cloth and then used as if it were feta or other soft cheese like ricotta. It worked for months and then one day it stopped never to work again. I haven't tried to do it again. You might give it a try with a proper culture. It sure is delicious and you can use the whey in your bread. c

JonJ's picture
JonJ

It isn't too acidic, the whey from kefir? I've had the thought but never tried it yet.

JonJ's picture
JonJ

24 hours sounds about right.

I like my kefir nice and thick, so have got a lot of grains in my jar. It takes between 24 and 48 hours depending on how lazy I am, but the yoghurt is plenty thick and not something you can drink, it has the texture of a thick yoghurt because I use so much grains. And sour, of course.

Edit: have never noticed it contaminating the sourdough, and keep them in the same cupboard. My kefir is older than my starter too, I've kept it going for about 3 years now.

Edit2: The kefir that I have for breakfast isn't like those commercial 'drink' kefirs - it makes a thick proper yoghurt now.

 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Thx!

Yippee

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Not sure about 'recipe' since making Kefir is fairly simple.

I do use a lot of grains (breaking all of Abe's rules!), here is more or less the amount for a 1l glass jar:

And this is a jar that I would call almost ready (it is my wife's jar, she likes it less thick than me and uses less grains):

And finally this is how I eat it with muesli and a dribble of honey to take away the sourness:

It is run through a plastic basket strainer with a wooden spoon and I circle the strainer with the spoon multiple times to push the liquid through the strainer as if you're pushing through a screen so that only the grains get left behind. I do throw away grains every time I do a refresh, but have found I get a thicker outcome (and faster) with more grains. Much of the acidity seems to be in the whey so it helps to let it sit in the strainer for a while to allow as much of that to run out as possible.

My kefir and sourdough have always been separate. I've never used it for baking. That description of swapping your levain for a kefir/flour mix sounds interesting and I'd like to try it, but suspect it would work best at a higher temperature (30 deg C, maybe even higher) as I've always thought kefir grains held mostly bacterial colonies. Maybe this will be how I'll get to try CLAS :-)

-Jon

Abe's picture
Abe

The 'rules' are not my own as I don't make kefir. Just pointing out what I've seen being done and what I understand the usual recipe for making kafir is. Have seen kefir yoghurt though but haven't delved into how it was made. I suppose for a traditional kefir drink one would need to follow a certain set of guidelines. It is my understanding that kefir does have yeast and have used it to make bread very successfully 100% kefir leavened. 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Hi Abe,

I'll just have to try it! How many hours did you leave the kefir/flour 'levain' for (for some people 'overnight' is 12 hours, for others 8)? Do you remember if you looked for doubling? And you made the bread at a normal kitchen temperature or with a bread proofer?

Thanks!

-Jon

Abe's picture
Abe

Hi Jon.

If you mix the kefir levain the evening before it'll have plenty of time. If you have a way to control the temperature keeping it above 80°F even better! I just went with room temperature and allowed the levain to dictate when it was ready.  

Here is the recipe I used: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51927/100-whole-spelt-kefir-bread

albacore's picture
albacore

So it looks like you actually go as far as the curds and whey stage, Jon - and then save the curds. Maybe a bit like the Viili that Caroline talks about.

Perhaps I'll have to try one more time....

Lance

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

His jar of curds and whey is way more like Viili. Also it gets ready in 24 hrs or less and loves cool temps not warm . It has the consistency of ricotta after draining and smoothing as Jon has done. Because of the cross contamination of so many things in a household of SD I’d venture to say this is not a true kefir anymore JMO

i never had trouble with whey adversely affecting my SD or my yeast or quick breads. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Wow never heard of kefir as thick as yogurt. Kefir is a very popular drink in Russia, and it's always liquidy. Interesting.

It's probably a little thicker in Russia than the typical kefir I had here in the UK, but certainly still pourable.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Hi, Abe. I tried your kefir method with some lowfat Lifeway brand kefir that I had on hand using King Arthur AP flour. I did not see any activity after overnight at room temperature.

I also set up a control using my 100% hydration rye culture with 5 g culture and 50 g each of water and KA AP. This doubled overnight.

Granted, the bottle of kefir had been opened, so was not at peak freshness, but I think that kefir from made from grains may be necessary for this to work.

Abe's picture
Abe

This will only work with kefir made from grains, or because it has been open, but it would be a good idea if you just left it and waited to see if anything happened. Have you discarded it yet? 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I started my experiment Sunday night and did not discard it until Tuesday night. There was still no activity in the kefir mixture. The rye culture mixture had begun to liquefy and was also discarded. I might try with a fresh bottle of kefir, but I suspect that kefir made from grains are key.