The Fresh Loaf

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Zuckerrübensirup = Rübenkrautextrakt?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Zuckerrübensirup = Rübenkrautextrakt?

In a recipe for "(Vollkorn) Kommissbrot," Bjorn calls for Rübenkrautextrakt, which I don't believe is sugar beet syrup, but another product.  Correct?  Or are these different terms for the same thing ("extract" v. "syrup.") ?.  Thanks.

tssaweber's picture
tssaweber
Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks - sorry, I should have put the German word for the syrup too - that's what I was referring to as the sugar beet syrup, above.

I'm almost positive it has to be the same stuff, just not come across that exact term before, so was hoping one of our German or Austrian (ahem, mini?) could chime in.  I changed the title of the thread to make it clearer, thanks - good idea.

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Whenever I try to interpret a German word, I break it up into the parts I know (or can reasonaby infer!) and those I don't.

'Zucker' and 'sirup' are self-explanatory, leaving:

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Haha, yeah, that works sometimes, in my experience, but it can also cause a diplomatic crisis....ask Nixon and his pronunciation of "Mao."

Yeah, I actually have the syrup - very much just like a regular molasses, seems to me.  I think mariana actually suggested cane over beet sugar beet syrup.  Have the jar and will be trying it out.

Just trying to see if the "extrakt" is just another reference to the same thing - e.g. malt "syrup" and malt "extract."

mariana's picture
mariana

It's Golden syrup or light treacle . They even provide the specific brand of golden syrup, when they ask for Rübenkrautextrakt in their bread formulas: 

Rübenkrautextrakt (z.B. Grafschafter Goldsaft). This one:

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks - I didn't even realize my label is in English until just now.  This is what I have:

Is this simply invert made from beet sugar, then?  Are the "sirup" and "extrakt" he same thing/are the two -stems interchangeable? 

I ma(de) my own invert for brewing purposes, but's a dark invert, from cane.  Golden treacle can be come by here, but not all that easily.  I presume the dark would bend to too sharply acrid?

Edit:  Sorry, I didn't see your z.B. info until just now.  I haven't come across the -extrakt usage until Lutz's formula (but then I'm not all that familiar with German formulas and baking, yet).  

Thanks mariana.

 

Paul

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Your syrup looks dark, Paul. There are two types of Zuckerrübensirup in Germany, a golden one, similar to golden syrup from sugar cane, and a brown syrup which is similar to dark treacle.  It might be good for some darker breads (dark rye flour, whole rye flour) but not for medium rye or light rye flour breads.

It is not "made from" beet sugar, but from beet juice which is then used to extract sugar and the byproduct, what's left, is this syrup or 'extract'.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_syrup

I found that pale or colorless malt syrups and colorless inverted sugar syrup or golden syrup (blend of molasses with inverted sugar syrup) are best, but if I have to use dark molasses, I use fancy molasses in baking and cooking, not black treacle, regardless whether they are from beets or from sugar cane.

Blackstrap molasses (black treacle) have very little sugar and a lot of bitter taste, they are the lowest grade of molasses. They are high in vitamins and minerals and used as yeast food in baking or sourdough maintenance, not for the taste of bread. Fancy molasses is the highest grade of molasses available: fancy molasses is pure sugarcane juice that has been condensed, inverted and purified. It is fragrant, tasty, and not bitter at all and doesn't give bread crumb ugly hue. 

 

- Are the "sirup" and "extrakt" he same thing/are the two -stems interchangeable? 

- In this example the two stems are simply regional words for the same thing. This is what Wikipedia says about it:

Zuckerrübensirup (auch Rübenkraut, im Rheinland Sehm oder Siepnaat, in der Eifel Schlachmundes, in Wiesbaden Rutsche, im Hannoverschen Stips, früher auch Wottelkrut (Wurzelkraut), im Braunschweiger Land Rübensaft, im früheren Pommern Kreude[1]) ist ein aus dem Saft von Zuckerrüben gewonnener Sirup.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK, thank you mariana, for the equivalences and notes.  I get it.  The invert I made is dark, but it tastes great - I think because it's far closer to golden in characteristics, and, not sure how it compares to commercial invert methods, done with extreme gentleness.

This is actually Lutz's Rhineland black bread.  Even so, I wasn't thinking when you originally said treacle and was only tripped when you mentioned blackstrap.  I'd rather go with the fancy (I have strong, and mild - choosing strong) molasses by your comments.  I presume a 1:1 substitution ratio.

Thanks again.  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

We tend to think most extracts are made using alcohol.  To extract the beet juice you can squeeze a fresh sugar beet all you want to and get nowhere.  I tried it, they are rather dry.  First the beet has to be cubed or shredded, soaked in water and cooked. The pulp is then separated and the sweet water is boiled down into a syrup.  The longer it cooks the darker it gets.    

The term is regional and not used everywhere.  

Taste your dark sirup and see if you like it first before adding it into the recipe.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Awesome.  Thanks Mini.  I used to make a similar syrup with malt barley.  Essentially mash to obtain wort/sweet water, then gently boiled down to desired viscosity/color/taste.

We have a "Miihu Leesa," which I used to extract various juices for saucemaking in our restaurant.  Might be worth a try with sugar beets?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

there are native plants near you, a type of sugar grass that could be experimented with.  But heck, why not go with maple syrup instead?  Or honey, bees do all the work!

Other boiled down sources can be pears, apples, watermelon, grapes, whatcha got plenty of in the garden? I had an overripe watermelon last week...

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

!  We have a heavy prairieland science area here.  I'll have to check on the grass.

At first when you mentioned maple syrup, I shrank back in horror. But that's so American.  That's so Jeff Smith.  And I am making German bread and, well, inconceivable.  Banish the thought.

Then I read the entirety of your post, I stopped being a purist freak, and thought how very cool to use all these wonderful things for the syrup basis.   Many thanks, mini!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

At the recipe link, https://brotdoc.com/2013/03/10/vollkorn-kommissbrot/
down in the comments, on 8-Apr-2013, someone asked the same question, and Björn answered in the next comment.

I don't read/speak Deutsch, but the question used the same two words as in the OP,  so I used Duck's translate on both the question and answer. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=translate+german+english&t=fpas&ia=web

 

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Great pickup.  Thanks Dave.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

My German's not great, but I noted two items of interest in the post:

Björn uses Waldstaudenroggenvollkornmehl (love those German compound nouns!) which is a species of perennial rye. This is fascinating. I wonder if anyone in the US or North America has used this.

In the first comment after the recipe, Micha says the crust defect shown happened three times in a row on wholemeal breads, including the "hamster" (u.a dem Hamster). Micha further further states that the "Hamster" has been baked umpteen times. After I stopped laughing, I tried to find out what was meant by the Hamster, to no avail. Any ideas?

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The term Hamster or hamstering is use like hoarder or hoarding, someone stocking up (a bit too much) for winter or in times of unavailability.  Hamsters are known to fill their cheeks with food to the point of looking ridiculous.  It could be the loaf has buldges as a baking problem but I believe "the Hamster" makes reference to a whole grain rye bread that keeps for weeks and has picked up the nickname due to the covid stress responce of hoarding.  Some countries hoard TP, others, like Spain, hoard wine and chocolate, Germany, rye bread.

This could be the first time the nickname is used for this bread or could be a reference to a recipe given previously in a blog or site.  

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks, Mini. I initially thought it was an error in the Google translator, and that's what prompted my laughter. I had this image of a hamster in an oven, especially baking it umpteen times!

But when I consulted my Langenscheidt's dictionary, the English translation was hamster (n.) or to hoard (v.). The post on the Brotdoc blog was from 2013, pre-dating the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm still interested in learning if there is a bread that is referred to as the Hamster.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

https://www.google.at/search?q=hamster+brotrezept&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-at&client=safari

http://www.der-sauerteig.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3552

This is a very seedy whole bread (as expected) everything a hamster would love packed into (cheeks) bread.  High fibre. Loks like it appeared originally on the blog in 2008 and has been periodically updated/tweaked.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Mini, in that recipe there's an ingredient for the Quellstück:

110 g Roggen VK-Schrot

-I presume the VK stands for vollkorn.  This is rye chops, not "meal;" (e.g., pumpernickel) and not flour/mehl, yes?  

alcophile's picture
alcophile

The recipe on ploetzblog.de uses Roggenschrot mittel (medium rye meal). I think Schrot probably translates to "meal" in most cases.That doesn't mean that rye chops or cracked rye could not be substituted for the Schrot, but as with rye flour, no standards exist on grade or terminology of rye "Schrot/meals" in the US.

I have Janie's Mill Rye Chops and Bay State Milling Fine, Medium, and Coarse Rye Meals and they are not exactly the same. The chops have been bolted to remove all fines. I cannot compare the Ardent Mills or Central Milling Rye Chops, but I think the BSM meals are the closest to the German Schrot (fein, mittel, grob), based on images I have seen online.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yep, schrot is meal, as far as I know.  Somewhere I think I raised the same question on the grades of coarseness because I was going to use that same formula from Lutz's blog.  My memory is hazy but I think at the time I mentioned a lexicon, which covered it ("coarse, middle, fine"):

Die Korngröße des Schrotes (fein, mittel, grob)....

That was before my mill, so I think I was trying to parse the grades by the different "chopped" and "meal" rye products I had in stock (e.g., I find Baker's Authority pumpernickel finer than another meal I have, so was going to use the BA as the "mittel," another (can't recall) for the "gross," and just whole flour for "fine").  Not ideal, but I wanted to use what I have.

Now that I have the mill, I'm really geeked to dial in coarseness to run different meals.

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Another question would be for the sauerteig.  16-18 hours at 30C falling to 26C sure seems long for that high a temp - no? Secondly, they give wide latitude for the sour seeding - 12 to 24g - a doubling.  Any suggestions on this?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

depends on your starter 12g is a roughly a feeding ratio of 1:10 (s:f) and will boost yeast if you need it.  24g of starter is 1:5 ratio (starter: flour) if starter already very active.  Up to you. Pick whatever you like between.

Schrott means to me partially whacked or crushed whole grain. With the exposed endosperm, it absorbs water faster and provides food for our wee beasties, they turn it into mush anyway.  I rarely have any but can understand why it boosts fiber. 

https://m.pauls-muehle.de/item/31393233

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I see.  Do I understand correctly, seeding a "low" of 12 grams encourages yeast production, and 24 if you have a starter at peak has no need?

Thanks for the schrot information.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but it will have more yeast once it does.  I tend to use 1:5 feeds.  This looks like a great recipe/guide to empty the seed cupboard. You can slip in some altus too instead of schrott.  Did you notice the reference to toss the seeds into the ST or saurteig (starter)?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK thanks mini.  I'd love to learn more of the background science behind these dynamics.  A good tool to have down.  

Argh - altus would have been great but I spaced you said this when I made it tonight.  The meal was not that coarse - this is  a fairly fine pumpernickel, by my sense, and I thought to mix in some chops or cracked rye but with the whole spelt and rye corns that would be out of balance. I have come to really like the contribution of altus.  Mine is a bit heavyhanded perhaps, in that some of it is from a dried commercial Borodinsky I bought some time ago, but most of it is just the remnants of my own ryes.

Add the seeds into the sauerteig?  No - I missed it.  We don't do a soaker separately (but at the same time as the sauerteig, if kept cool - mine's at 20C)?  

Edit:  I missed your link to the Paul's-Muehle schrot - don't bake on 4 hours sleep, Paul!  That looks like our "chops," to me, but even coarser than the rye chops I've seen.  Many of the corns appear to me to be intact, or very nearly so.  So my soaker was wrong in that it used the pumpernickel.  I'll bake this one out but start over with the proper meal.

v.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't think it is a problem, you did fine.  Getting caught up in the nitty gritty?  The idea behind soaking is to soften the outer bran bits from the inside out.  Using scrap rye is basically using the rye that fell off the mill or the bran and big bits after sifting. With mills getting more efficient over time, less schrott is "produced."  I supposed currently it has to be produced to meet demand instead of making use of a byproduct -- whch raises the price.  

Looking forward to seeing your baked hamster.   

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks mini - these back stories are really great.  Now I know what is meant by "scrap" rye, which stumped me. 

Well, FWIW - the bird feeder log, I mean, Hamster, lol:

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It certainly looks like all the better Hamster pictures and "furred"with a nicely colored crust.  Wrap up tightly and cut later with a sharp thin straight edge knife -- brings out the gem quality of the seeds on the surface of the sliced bread.  

Hey, I can tell.  Already thinking the crumb shot will be a winner. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Mini, thank you for all your help here and elsewhere.  I don't know enough of this grain or these "types" of "pullman" rye breads (or rye breads generally) yet, but my god is this bread delicious.  My family gushed, which is always accolade enough. 

Don't know if this is enough to pick up any flaws in the crumb, but here it is:

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Duplicate.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I baked a lot of these types of ryes for my son.  He takes them wandering in the Alps.  He especially likes hemp hearts to add crunch.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I thought I'd replied but it looks like it got zapped.  Just to say, that's a really sweet story, mini.  I could blow it by trying my baby-level German with "glücklicher Sohn - er wandert mit deinem guten Brot!" but, well...I just did, I guess.  :)

Very beautiful image.  Thanks for sharing.

Benito's picture
Benito

Gorgeous loaf Paul, the crumb looks great to my eyes. 

Benny

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thank you Benny.  I've a growing pile of "keeper" recipes, and this one earned a solid spot.  Love the lore, too.

Mini, that is a really sweet story.  I'm tempted to use my primitive German to discuss "sein Wandern und dein gutes Brot," but I'm positive I'd be leaping to English within seconds!

The image is a beautiful one.  Thanks for sharing.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but nice to hear it again.  :)   English is my first language so if you Deunglish the German, I might not notice. :)

alcophile's picture
alcophile

That does look like a bird feeder log. If you find the bread inedible (unlikely!), you could always feed it to the birds. This might be one bread that would be good for the birds, unlike the common white breads people use.

I'd love to see a crumb shot. Is this Lutz's recipe?

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks for the references to the Hamster. I should have searched in German as you did. My search for "Hamster bread" instead of "Hamster brot" returned results that had bread shaped like hamsters. Another bread to add to the to-do list.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Hahahaha, that's awesome, love it.  Thanks mini.  The dangers of direct translation.  

The "Schwarzer Hamster" looks absolutely delicious.  Have about 1/2 a loaf each of Lutz's Rhenish blackbread and a 1-2-3 SD left so will be making the "Hamster" tomorrow.  Thanks mini!