September 7, 2021 - 9:23am
Decent rise, uniform, small holes?
Maddening to me is that I used to bake much better than I do now and can't find the reason(s) why. I was better when I knew technically less.
Among my current challenges, I get decent spring but cannot for the life of me achieve an open crumb. Not surprisingly, more so on rye but even on highly hydrated wheats, "eh."
Any diagnoses? As a model for argument, if decent spring and uniform holes, does that suggest proper proofing but rough handling during pre-shaping/shaping?
I recall something interesting that M. Rubaud said, something to the effect that flavor, character develops during bulk but gas develops during proofing. I took that to mean get a full bulk but proofing is the time to be careful and manage for leavening.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
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First rule - KISS. You went down the rabbit hole, now ya gotta find your way back out. The Rubard guy is exactly right. "Bulk" as it is commonly referred to, had nothing to do with the size of holes, it's all about fermenting for flavor and developing gluten. Holes depend on handling - after there is enough gluten to hold them. I'm always amazed that with all the "expert"advice here (other places are no exception), fundamentals are oh so lacking. But hey, at least it's amusing! Enjoy!
Forgive me, but right in the center of your posts is typically a gem of wisdom. The usual odd assessments of personality & motive are unnecessary, unhelpful chaff.
I couldn't be "more KISSer" than trying to replicate what someone I respect is doing. Where my results diverge, I'd like to know why.
It appears in a word, you agree - it's probably decent proofing, but poor handling.
You can do everything right but if your dough isn’t in the right frame of mind then it will never make those nice big holes. Perhaps you are making dough that is stronger now but lacks extensibility. It’s like picking a strawberry, enough grip to pull it of the plant but not so much to bruise it. The dough needs to hold the air bubbles but also be slack enough to get the holes.
Certainly also double check your shaping. A good bench rest will get some bubbles going. Gentle shaping will stretch them and encourage the haphazard look you are after.
Good points, thanks. This would seem to be the case for ryes as well as wheats, though - so I am not really developing any structure in the rye. Maybe just too rough?
True story. As a kid I studied a bit with the late fencing master Albert Urenda. If you ever see the film "The Great Race," he's doing the actual swordplay in the castle dual.
Sagacity everywhere, in the coolest (Indian, at least my memory says so - that was 50 years ago; my first experience with it) verbal music, said "Paul you must hold the foil like a little bird; not so soft as to allow it to fly away, but not so strong as to kill it."
What a beautiful word picture! I tend to be too rough during shaping, and will try to remember that later today.
He must have been a golfer at some point. Harry Vardon taught his grip (the Vardon grip - the standard for golfers for over a century) the same way. Tight enough to keep the baby bird from flying away, but not tight enough to suffocate it. Funny how the same applies to bread, and many other things. By the way, The Great Race is a favorite, can't count how many times I've seen it over the last 50 years! Enjoy?
Hahaha, that's funny. I don't know if he golfed but I knew tennis was also a big part of his life. It sounded so original coming off of his exotic tongue, lol.
Awesome you love TGR - I do too, haven't seen it in forever but will add it to the watchlist.
Rye suffers from a low gluten level so it doesn’t have the strength to hold anything other than small air pockets. Low percentages of rye in an otherwise wheaty loaf should not interfere with your quest for an irregular crumb.
One other major factor to consider is the state of your starter and whether or not it is getting to the point of activating all those lovely enzymes that chip away at the gluten, which at low levels is desirable.
Thanks. It was a learning curve but once I finally accepted ryes are not wheats and should be treated accordingly, my satisfaction with most of the bakes has proceeded pretty well.
What I'm really driving at is that I seem to have this issue, regardless of "style," i.e., against a decent "model" for the "style," say, for wheat levain, moderate, uneven alveoli - my model would be Calvel for this, and not Tartine (I don't mean a value judgment or quality issue - I mean the fact Calvel's approach, it seems to me, is for moderate, uneven holes. And that is my preference as well). So my baguettes, wheat levains, most ryes, all chew great and taste good - for the most part - bit if you were to put them side by side with a model for the style, the lack of alveolation is obvious. My baguettes might have more of this than my ryes, but comparatively speaking, for the style, they're ill-developed. Does that make sense?
As usual I think mariana laid it out really well. I really do believe in my heart of hearts the way to learn is to work on one thing intently, observing carefully, and doing it again. I think I can rule out the state of my starter(s) as a proximal cause. They are all really strong. I will probably go back to a pain au levain, and observe it stage-by-stage comparing these with the finished result and go from there.
Miracle, I'm also learning to just enjoy the process, with no concern for a certain apex standard or I'll have felt it failed. It may sound strange, but it's totally alien to me. Feels good.
Paul, I have the same problem as you, but in reverse. I strive for uniform small holes in my bread crumb, but it fights me and from time to time I lose that ability to produce it and have 'holey' or 'lacy' crumb which I don't appreciate at all. Or, in the worst case scenario, a blend of two types of crumb in the same slice! It comes and goes in waves. It's as if I forget sometimes how to make bread behave the way I want it to and I have to slow down and observe myself as I work, as I follow the recipe.
I find that it comes and goes, it's a skill, it has nothing to do with 'knowledge', it's in your hands, or in mine. It does depend on skillful execution of two stages in breadmaking: on mixing (preferments, autolysis, kneading and punch downs) and on whatever you do after bulk fermentation is over: pre-shape, shape, proof, bake.
Weaker flours allow to obtain any crumb with ease. Stronger flours give larger holes, with or without preferments and especially with 100% and lower hydration preferments.
This is just a general knowledge, of course. We don't know what breads you are talking about, where you deviate from the recipe or the method, and what causes your specific issue with the character of crumb pores.
To discover it, you would have to work on a specific bread over and over, following the instructions on paper and recording what you do, until you find the discrepancy and your personal blind spot.
Perfect. Thanks mariana. Sorry about the lack of breads mentioned or photos of same. I should clarify that for some reason, over the last few years, I've lost touch, so it's basically universal throughout my baking. I am in no way looking for huge, even large alveoli; probably what M. Calvel means when he writes of "moderate, irregular holes."
This applies for wheat levains, rye levains, nearly pure ww miches, even poolish-preferment baguettes. I wish I had the pics from my earliest years here - they would be on my earliest threads, I think, in which IIRC I was complaining of "explosive" oven spring or the like. Unfortunately all the photos from those early years were lost when photobucket precipitously set commercial pricing. But the oven spring across the board was strong, alveoli dispersion and variances, good.
Something's happened over the last few years, and I suck in this department.
Have you tried baking ciabatta or similar plain unshaped yeasted breads and buns (ciabattini), Paul? That should restore your ability to create "holey" crumb in a minute and your faith in yourself as well.
Like minds! Ciabatta is my go-to for pretty much this reason - it's relatively quick, relatively easy and there's no pressure to shape it or have it rise overly much because it's not really going to take well to either of those things but you'll get a darned good base for a sandwich all the same.
Starting from the basis that it'll be a bit of a pain to work (if you do it by hand) it's pretty forgiving and I think a really great example of a bread that is simply true to itself and isn't trying to be something it's not.
I remember the first time I made ciabatta - for an oven-dried tomato and bread salad. I thought it such a failure that I went to the shops to get a professionally made loaf. When I got home and tried it, however, I realised that the home-made one, however short of whatever mark, was streets ahead of the locally-available offering and thereafter ciabatta had a place in my heart
Thank you mariana, it's a perfect idea. I have been so stuck in French and now German sourdoughs that it was completely off my radar. I have only used one ciabatta recipe but I've made it many times and, as usual, in my experience, Jeffrey Hamelman delivers. It's his olive oil and wheat germ poolish and it has thankfully always come out well. Sorry, another one as well and I can't recall where I got it, but also a poolish, also with EVOO, but in addition some rosemary and a healthy sprinkling of fleur de sel (actually, I prefer sel gris for this) on a misted crust. Delicious, both I've tried. I have a vague memory of a pain rustique from somewhere, similarly fun in the "stretch and drop" shaping/baking. Might have been Daniel Leader? Can't recall, but it was also loose and simply enjoyable.
Awesome. Many thanks. And an addendum to my earlier post in response to yours - also as usual, a lot contained in a body of clear writing. Always helpful - gold. Thanks mariana.
-Dan, that salad sounds delicious. Ciabatta is a perfect choice, agreed.
It was. It really was.
The trick was to take all the enriched juice and oil, which was by that time effectively a tomato 'jus' and, mixed with a little balsamic, use that to toss the bread in before adding it to the salad. Add in some basil and some torn buffalo mozzarella and, you are somewhere very happy. (Or at least I was.)
It's funny, though - one can get stuck in a certain mindset and can sometimes forget the rich (and delicious) panolply of bread making traditions around the world.
I sometimes goggle at videos of various Mediterranean (and middle-eastern) bread baking where the baker pulls a handful - or armful! - of dough out of an enormous tub or giant bowl and, shaping it in mid air, plonks it directly onto the waiting peel and off it goes - no pre-shaping or proofing or final shaping, just a quality dough at it's peak, gathered simpley (but with practiced hands) and baked to perfection.
The celebrated bread of Altamura mostly gets a pre-shape but, honestly, that seems more for accurate scaling than anything else as the rounds of dough are shortly thereafter slapped and stretched and folded over and then in they go - no resting in a banneton or couche; no scoring - just onto the peel and into the oven.
My own cure for chasing after some supposed ideal for some specific type of artisan bread baked in some specific way, the likes of which so many go so weak at the knees for, is to realise that it is exactly that: something very specific that, in truth, represents a mere fraction of the world of delicious possibilities and preferences.
Sometimes it's nice to be able to look yourself in the mirror and honestly say: I quite like denser bread! (And one of the sweetest and most morish baguettes I have ever eaten anywhere was something I pulled out of my own oven and was a dense disappointment when I first cut into it.)