The Fresh Loaf

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"Black Rye Flour," DE T2500?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

"Black Rye Flour," DE T2500?

I have been enjoying baking from Lutz Geißler's blog quite a bit.  I'd like to make his 100% "Malzkruste."  While I don't have a Cooking Chef or any other means to stir while maintaining saccharification (65C, optimal b-amylase activity), though that would be as cool as it gets, static, prolonged "mashes" have worked out well.

This is the first recipe I've come across actually calling for "black rye flour," Type 2500.  Anyone familiar with this, what are its characteristics?  Is it a variety of rye, or is it altered in some way?  Any possible means to emulate the flour here in the US?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Stanley Ginsberg in The Rye Baker states that US dark rye flour is equivalent to Austrian type R2500. I assume that is what Lutz is specifying. This refers to Bay State Milling's definition of dark rye flour, not Bob's Red Mill's definition (which is just whole rye). I think "schwarz" could be translated to "dark" in this case. That bread looks interesting; I'll have to add it to my long list (and getting longer) of rye breads to try.

You may have to look elsewhere than the NY Bakers for a supply of dark rye. I stocked up, but I will have to start looking for alternate vendors.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Perfect.  Thanks, I'll need to re-read his book.  I'm afraid I read through it quickly looking more for a formula from a given area than really dove in. 

And in terms of "dark rye," I wondered about that.  Wish we had a standardized system with it.  Interestingly, I picked up one of my many books sitting low bedside and not yet read but today, Artisan Baking Across America, by Maggie Glezer.  Cool section on roller milling and Bay State.  Or more specifically, Rocky Mountain Flour Milling, "RMFM," founded by Steve and Lisa Curran.  Check out the "Kice Mill," which he apparently invented.  Not explicitly dealt with as to why, but it seems Bay State partially bought RMFM as managing partners and the Currans moved on, to General Mills.

The book is much more than I thought it was when I first got it, and it now has top spot.  Lol, yep, only like 500 recipes that keep getting shuffled, I hear you.  What, over 900 on Lutz's sit alone???

On the hunt then myself for true dark rye.  Thanks for the note, alcophile.

Lolovitch's picture
Lolovitch

Hi Paul,

Schwarzroggen is an Austrian type of rye flour. It is obtained by milling only the outer parts of the grain resulting in a somewhat "more-than-wholegrain" flour. It is characterised by very high water absorption and increased enzymatic activity (hence why Lutz is using it in its Malzbrühstück). Recommended usage is 10% (max. 20%) of the total flour quantity to achieve a dark colour and pronounced taste.

If not available to you, I would substitute with rye wholegrain flour, preferably freshly milled if intended to use in a Malzbrühstück.

Cheers, Laurent

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks Lolovitch.  In searching around it seems most here in the US confuse "whole rye flour" for "dark rye flour."  At least, I've not been able to find a resource that supplies true dark flour.  I think Stanley Ginsberg of the Rye Baker used to supply proper dark rye, I believe.  Unfortunate he stopped selling retail.

I've got #30 and #50 sieves.  I could bolt perhaps at the #30 level, granting that it's not the same thing but as good as I can get at home.  What do you think?

Lolovitch's picture
Lolovitch

Hi Paul,

If you have access to a mill and the two sieves you mention, you could try the following:

For the Schwarzmehl: mill a first pass at a coarse setting, use your #30 sieve (i am not familiar with the US system but understand this is approx 600 microns) to sift out the finer fraction. then re-mill finely what remains in the sieve to produce an approximation of Schwarzmehl. This will have a higher bran to flour ratio than wholegrain flour. By playing around with the setting of the coarser first pass (and the humidity of your grain) you can fine-tune your results.

For producing a dark rye flour, although of a lower ash content level then wholegrain, you can mill as fine as your mill allows you to and use your #50 (I assume this is 300 microns) to remove some of the coarser fraction which will proportionally include more of the bran.
The fraction coarser than 300 microns that remains can still be used. Actually I quite like coarser rye as it gives a less compact texture. If you use coarsely milled rye, I recommend kneading for 10 min at slow speed, wait 20 min and knead again for 10 min at slow speed. This "squeezes" the starch out and makes it available to the water and sourdough.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Hi Lolovitch, thanks.  I'm sorry, I misspoke.  I gave you the wrong mesh sizes.  They are approximately #20 at roughly 840 microns (1/30" gap) and the "#50" is actually the No. 30, at 600 microns (1/50" gap).  I don't have a finer mesh - by your description of 300 microns, I'm getting an actual No. 50, which I don't have.

With this mill, I don't have the ability to re-mill anything that is close to flour - it binds the auger and stones.  In particular, rye is dicey. 

It sounds like the best solution would be your second method, if I had a No. 50. 

I could try a truly coarse setting, taking the retained portion off that and re-mill it finely.  On the other hand, I have both cracked rye and rye chops.  Again not ideal, but wouldn't passing one of these through my #50 sieve be essentially the same thing (granting freshness is not at all comparable).

Thoughts?

Edit:  I have what I think might be a No. 45 tamis that I used specifically for sifting for pastry work.  

Lolovitch's picture
Lolovitch

Hi Paul, I wouldn't concern myself too much with trying to reproduce exactly a European flour type. There is always going to be a substantial difference due to equipment, process and grain. The same is actually the case within Europe, for example I am always impressed by the differences in milling processes between France, Germany and Italy. The good thing is however that with your understanding you will be able come up with an approximation which will result in an excellent bread. At least that's the stance I have been taking and the trial and error is also part of the fun.

Re Schwarzroggen, yes, what I meant is really a coarse setting in the first pass resulting in what I would call Schrot in German, which I understand is chops in English. I would assume that your mill can handle that in the 2nd pass. Anyhow, you will always be able to produce a Malzbrühstück as per the recipe by using wholegrain rye flour instead of Schwarzroggen.

Re dark rye, again, I would not be nervous to substitute with wholegrain rye flour. But worth giving it a try with sifting your wholegrain milled rye with your finest sieve. Still at 600 micron, you will be separating out most larger bran particles. Or at least that would be the result with my mill (15cm stone mill), what mill are you using?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks for a great post, Lolovitch.  You're absolutely right, and I really do need to learn to accept the limitations we move within.  Haven't tried getting a darker flour off coarser chops, etc., but I did pass my rye flour (tightened up a bit, for a bit finer flour; I've found I can't sustain that too long, else glazing tends to take off) through the 600 m. screen, and obtained not only a nice looking darker rye, but in comparing the sifted flour to my KA Med. Rye, it does appear slightly lighter, less gray, whiter, so I think I'll use that as an ersatz 997, at least for now.  The Malzbrot from Lutz uses the 2500 and an Odenwälder Landbrot I'm making uses 997, as well as wheat 1050 (I get this from Central Milling, their "T110" which they describe as approaching a first clear, though it contains more endosperm than a true first clear).

I should mention I find Hanseata's paper on correspondences really helpful.

Thanks again for your help.  

 

Paul

alcophile's picture
alcophile

King Arthur's Organic Medium Rye ash content is 0.85 ± 0.05% (14% moisture). This would correspond to 0.99% at 0% moisture. Is that Type 997 flour as is? I got that analysis from KA customer care.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Missed this, alcophile, sorry.  It seems to me, yes - that would be Type 997, way lighter than I presumed.  As it is called "Medium" rye flour I just automatically presumed it corresponded with Type 1370.  That it was darker than desired in recipes calling for Type 1150, but "close enough."

I think alcophile hits it.  Is KA's "medium" rye flour in fact a light rye, Type 997?

Edit:  Interestingly, I looked up their commercial products and their "light rye" comes in at .65% ash which puts it at ..76% ash European. That's way lower than the German standard for the lightest rye which I have at type 815, 0.815% ash.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I wish American flour standards included the ash content analysis. It would clear up all of this confusion. I realize small miller's may not be able to conform, but at least the big guys could.

BTW, Janie's Mill Organic Light Rye Flour ash clocks in at 1.5% (1.7%, 0% moisture)! That's almost whole grain rye!

Janie's Mill Organic Light Rye Flour

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Queried KA, this was their response:

 

"European flours are sold by “Type” with a corresponding number most often based on the ash content of the flour. We don't currently use the W rating system for our flours.


The flours in parenthesis represent the flours we offer that would best match the type listed:

Wheat Flour:
• Type 405 - is used for fine Pastries and Cakes - in Austria it is #480 (Unbleached Pastry Flour)
• Type 550 - is used for tender breads, biscuits, croissants, cookies, and muffins, etc. (King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour)
• Type 1050 - is used for light grayish looking bread - light wheat flour (White Whole Wheat Flour)
• Type 1700 - is for used for hardy bread - dark wheat flour (Traditional Whole Wheat Flour)

Rye Flour:
• Type 815 - for small pastries - ground very fine (White Rye Flour)
• Type - 997 - or 1150 - for light rye bread - ground fine (White Rye Flour)
• Type - 1150 - for regular rye bread - it is little darker then 997, but also ground finely - and is called Graubrot (gray bread) (Medium Rye Flour)
• Type - 1370 - dark rye bread, also used for mixed breads (wheat and rye) is ground even finer (Medium Rye Flour)
• Type - 1800 - whole grain rye used for basic for all full grain breads (Pumpernickel)"

-which didn't address the question you raised because I think you're right - that's closest to a T997 and not a T1150, much less 1370.  Queried again.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Well, just heard back again:

"the chart was created by our former Master Baker Jeffrey Hamelman a few years ago, so based on his knowledge and background I would say it's accurate and the 997 would be the white rye that we sell."

-and I told them I absolutely love Mr. Hamelman, but it still doesn't clear up the matter of ash content and classification.  A phone call earlier suggested I mail to the commercial product people, so I did that.  Would be nice to know.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I heard back from their technical baker.  Very kind of them to give such a thorough response:

There is no standard in the US for what a light, medium, or dark rye has to be. To the best of my knowledge a German Type 997 would be the equivalent of a “medium rye” in the US, not a light rye. As we offer, the range in the US is light/white, medium, dark, and whole rye.

If you do the math .997 at 0% moisture, equates to 1.16 at 14% moisture [the standard in the US for reporting is 14% MB (MB = moisture basis)]. I looked at the product info sheet I have for the Organic Medium Rye, which states the ash is 1.15%.

If the ash was .86 as he states, and that was at 14% MB, then he is correct that the equivalent at 0% moisture would be 1% or .99% as he writes.

So it comes down to the ash content.  Alcophile, where did you get the ash figure?

I don't get his stating German T997 as a medium rye.  From a German site:

Roggen Mehl Typ 997 ist in hellen Roggenbrotsorten enthalten ("Rye flour type 997 is contained in light rye breads").

I had thought it's used in lighter ryes.  At 0.99%, maybe it's close enough to Type 1150 for both to be considered "medium."  I don't know, and really shouldn't be conjecturing - we've some German and Austrian folks (and others) who really know the scoop.

 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I think the tech baker at KA got mixed up. Here is the math:

0.997% ash in 100 g flour (0%) is 0.997 g ash (100 g × 0.00997 = 0.997 g)

1.15% ash in 100 g flour (14%) is 1.15 g ash in 86 g dry flour (100 g × 0.86 = 86 g flour; 100 g × 0.0115 = 1.15 g ash; 1.15 g ÷ 86 g = 1.337%)

Do you follow the calculations?

The customer service rep that email me stated 0.85% ash in the Organic Medium Rye flour. Maybe they gave me the ash content of KA White Rye?

0.85% ash in 100 g flour (14%) is 0.85 g ash in 86 g dry flour (100 g × 0.86 = 86 g flour; 100 g × 0.0085 = 0.85 g ash; 0.85 g ÷ 86 g = 0.998%)

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yes, I get the math.  He does too  - read his closing line.  It's a question of what you were quoted for ash content, and as you were, yes, Type 997, which I've only seen as a "light rye" used mainly in lighter ryes and mixed rye/wheat breads.

Not German!  So could be totally wrong.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I wish those millers that have the data would just publish the analysis for the flour. Even if it was just a spec sheet and not the actual lot analysis. I would assume if it's for sale, it meets specs. Of course, this doesn't help with wide range specs (e.g., 1.1–1.4% ash).

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

In total agreement.  Though like you say, so many of the ranges they give at least for retail customers makes the info useless, I feel.  Great when you get a bag and have the lot # on it.  That would be a lot of e.g., Ardent Mills chops!

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Pending info.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

That explains why KA medium rye looked at least as dark as BSM medium rye. I thought it was too dark to be 0.85% ash.

I'm going to re-inquire with Janie's Mill about their rye flours. The light rye had an ash content of 1.5% (14% moisture). That's not even close to light rye and really would be too dark for even medium rye. It may be that they did not retest the flour after bolting.

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Does that mean it's effectively rye 'first clear'? (Milled finely.)

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yep.  That's my understanding of what it's supposed to be, Dan.  As far as I've been able to tell, Bay State is the only one to my knowledge doing it so, in the US.

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Yeah - unfortunately, it seems that wheat first clear flour is (or was) commonly used in rye loaves so any kind of search for "rye first clear" gets you lots of hits but not for what you want!

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

That said, I did find this:

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Food-Live-Non-GMO-Product/dp/B07D9P11W6


Which seems right BUT, on their website, it implies it's a whole flour:

https://foodtolive.com/shop/organic-rye-flour/

Additionally, that site claims:

"Organic whole grain rye flour contains a large amount of gluten"

This is not the case for rye and would be even less so for 'first clear'. On the above pack shot, it also claims:

". . . a protein content of 16%."

And yet the nutrition panel shows 3g of protein per 28g serving, which is nowhere close so who can say what the hell they are talking about.

I would note that these claims are only on their new packaging (the 2lb bag) and the older packs make no mention of 'first clear' or 16% protein.

d

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yeah, it's a shame we really have no standards here for rye (as well as the relative dearth of rye products period).  I got some no-name, "re-packed from bulk" pumpernickel off Amazon and tossed it when it was clear it was not only "repacked," but had nothing on the pack except what looked like a home label, all white sticker.  Looks nothing like this pretty picture.  Guess seller "Generic" should have tipped me off, lol.

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Lucky you - Australia has no standards for any flour!

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Yeah, but Australia has....Australians.  Fine bunch of folks!

-in another life, as a Shakespearean actor in classical conservatory training, we were a very tight group.  When I was there we had a ton of people who'd gone through NADA; best friends I could ever have hoped for, a very special time for me with very special people.  I miss them a good deal, thinking on them.