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Sourdough starter

rb75453's picture
rb75453

Sourdough starter

I buy a starter; feed and discard once a day.  Best guess as to how long it will be before the yeast and LAB in the flour I use come to dominate?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Please... Which starter? Condition of starter?  How exactly fed? Temperature?  The more details the better.

rb75453's picture
rb75453

The specific starter is marketed as the "Beast", a combination of four unnamed and unidentified starters.

Condition: dry when received.  Hydrated with filtered water and feed with 50/50 mix KA whole wheat and all purpose, unbleached flour.

Was revived quickly and by the second feeding was vigerious.

At present on my counter at around 74*F or 23*C.

feeding continues with 50/50 mix once ever 12 hours.

As I understand from The Sourdough Project the principal source of yeast strains and the specific lactobacillus in a sourdough starter come from the flour 

I hope this helps. That's all I can say.

Thanks for your interest and I hope for your input and any comments.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

How much water to flour?

rb75453's picture
rb75453

Water to flour. 50/50 by weight, 100% hydration, 1-1-1 ratio.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or is the starter "winging it" with you?  I ask because reviving a dry starter can often be overfed in the first few days.

Discarding can be equated to "dumping the baby with the bathwater" or diluting the starter.  It is not uncommon for wild starters to look active the first 24 hrs only to discover this is only a first bacterial reaction to water.  Try setting up a control, the same flour and water jar without the starter and compare them.  This control may come in handy to judge the new starter.

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I parsed your question differently than Mini.

I suppose you are asking:  How long before the strains of yeast and LAB from the flour that I use to feed my starter will dominate (outnumber)  the original strains of yeast and LAB that were originally present in my purchased dried starter?

Implicit in your question (as I understand it), is that you want to keep the original strains as long as possible.

The answer is, you probably guessed it... "It depends."

Here are the four main things it depends on.  1 and 2 are the most important/influential.

1. What you feed it.  Feeding it a white/refined flour like north american AP or bread flour adds as little "outsider" or "newcomer" strains as possible. Whole wheat flour, or whole rye flour, because of the bran, carries more yeast or LAB (i forget which) than white flour.

2. Feeding ratios.  Feeding it high ratios like 1:4:4 adds a higher proportion of those "newcomer" strains, in relation to the originals. So maintenance-feed no more than 1:1:1.   If you need to feed a higher ratio to make a levain for a bake, or use whole grain in your levain, separate off some starter, just enough starter to make the levain for that bake. Keep back a portion of the original starter alone/separate, which is always fed 1:1:1.  Your "mother" starter should then always be fed 1:1:1 with white flour.

A feeding ratio of 2:1:1 , also written 1 : .5 : .5 , would be even better to make sure "newcomers" stay at a minimum.   I think 2:1:1 is as low as you want to go.

3. Cross-contamination. Hands, utensils, and containers can transfer newcomer strains of yeast and LAB. Especially if you have more than one starter in your kitchen or fridge.

If you mill grain into flour at home, that might create some airborne bran dust which can carry LABs and yeast spores and then get on hands, utensils, and containers, or directly transfer via air.

Volunteers for Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail Starter are required to have no other starter or culture in their house, so as to avoid cross-contamination.

4. Temp.  Different strains can prefer different temps. So if the strains you bought prefer room temp, be sure to leave the just/fed starter at room temp for a few hours before refrigerating.  Admittedly, this is difficult to know... what temp the "originals" preferred, and if it's different than the "newcomers" that arrive with every feed.  But I'm just mentioning this for the sake of completeness.

---

To give a number...   (I've used 3 purchased starters. I accidentally killed one and lost its backups, and just plain didn't like the taste/smell of the 2nd)   ... I'd say at least 2 years, which is the longest I've had a particular one going.

Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail starter has been kept pretty much the same, supposedly,  since.... 1847.

HTH

rb75453's picture
rb75453

yes, idaveindy you have clarified the muddle I made and answered my question.

I truly appreciate your advice. I am happy with the two starters I have now but in the past I lost what I thought was the perfect starter for me.

I did almost the exact opposite of everything you recommend.

Thanks again and be assured now that I know the errors of my way I will sin against sourdough starters no more.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

When I started feeding my less-vigorous starter with unmalted AP flour, it got a little sluggish, taking longer to peak, and not lasting as long between feedings.

I went back to flour with added malted barley flour in the ingredient list, and that seemed to be a fix.  One can see the added malted barley flour or added amylase in the list of ingredients on the package.

In the US, white (branless) flour needs a little malted barley/wheat flour or amylase added to assist in the breakdown of starch into maltose and glucose for yeast food.

Sometimes I add a little brown sugar or maltodextrin powder to my starters when they seem sluggish.

The benefit of feeding some whole grain flour to your starter is that the bran in whole grain flour brings in extra enzymes to help convert starch fo sugar.

If the white flour in your country does not have some added malted barley/wheat flour or amylase then you may need to add a teensy bit of whole grain flour, or malted barley flour, for the enzymatic effect.

I've been told that EU-grown white flour (usually?)  has the needed enzymes naturally   occurring in it in the endosperm, because they have different strains of wheat than North America.

How much whole grain you can add, and still avoid the "newcomer" yeast/LAB from taking over, I don't know.

Benito's picture
Benito

I'd love to hear from Debra Wink about this question.  I have wondered this as well what happens to the microbiome of our starters.  Do they stay consistent or do they evolve?  I think with larger ratio feedings especially with whole grain flours there is a greater chance of evolution.  However, the pre-existing microbes have quite the head start and if they are most fit for that composition of the flours, hydration and temperature they will likely persist.  If they aren't most fit for their environment and the flour contains microbes that are better suited then over time I would expect those newer microbes to take hold.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Dan said his purchased starters never stayed the same, and just morphed into his   common standard.

My purchased starters always kept their characteristics.  

I don't know if it made/makes a difference, but my feed schedule has been to let the just-fed starter sit at room temp until it doubles, about 3 hours, then store in fridge.

--

The "Whole Wheat Desem" from Cultures for Health was my favorite (the one I ruined). Though I maintained it at 100% hydration.

Right now my main one is San Francisco Sourdough, also from CFH.

My secondary one in the fridge now is a home-made one from home-milled hard red winter wheat that was vacuum packed (as whole kernals) for at least 8 years. So I feel I can experiment with it.  It is not as vigorous or as tasty as the CFH San Fran.

--

Item 1 on my list, white flour only, comes from the instructions of several suppliers of dried culture -- CFH, Carl's Oregon Trail group, and Ed Wood. Item 2, feeding ratios, is math. Item 3 just seems logical to me. Item 4 is inference from reading, but there is no practical way of determining it in the home.

---

I may not have covered all the bases, so it would be good to hear from a specialist/scientist such as Debra W, so good idea there.

There may even be some special secrets that the commercial folks, such as Cultures for Health and Ed Wood's Sourdough International use to keep their various products' strains pure and separate.  

gavinc's picture
gavinc
gerhard's picture
gerhard

The main recipe I make includes a sponge of 240 grams flour, 300 grams water and a table spoon of sourdough culture. If I make the sponge with AP flour it tastes totally different then when I use whole-wheat for the sponge. Once the final dough is made both contain the same amount of each ingredient but the flavour is distinct. When the sponge is made with whole-wheat the tangy flavour is dominant while the AP sponge bread has a mild subtle sour flavour that many don’t seem to even detect. This seems to indicate to me that different types of flour encourage different yeasts and  bacteria found in my starter to flourish. Same ingredients but totally different results.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

@gerhard:  Don't forget the enzymes that the whole grain brings to the playing field.  As I understand it, whole grain makes sugar out of starch a lot quicker than AP flour, even when the miller adds malted barley flour or amylase to the AP.

So I suppose it possible that because of the additional sugar available to them, the bugs in your seed starter multiply a lot faster in the whole grain sponge than they do in the AP sponge.  If so, the taste difference could be due to more yeast/LAB products/byproducts as opposed to different products/byproducts.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

‘As I understand it, whole grain makes sugar out of starch a lot quicker than AP flour’

That's not exactly accurate Dave.

Indeed, wholemeal / whole grain flours are certainly richer in enzymes compared to their white flour counterparts, yet increased amylase activity is not demonstrated by the Hagberg Falling Number assay.

From the same batch of grains, wholemeal and white (~72% extraction) flours will have about the same falling number which indicates the starch to sugar conversion rate.

This being the case why then is it typically observed that whole grain flours appear to ferment faster? 

It's a good question to which I believe the answer is multifaceted. Possible answers could be the presence of simple sugars being greater in whole flours compared to white. But also, the further release of simple sugars from NSPs by other non-amylase enzymes.

Beyond fermentable sugars other reasons could be differences in chemical (organic and mineral) compositions and enzyme activities that affect fermentation and dough degradation.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Ah so. Thanks for the additional details.