The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Fröstlberg-Kruste: Proofing "seam down" and baking "seam down?"

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Fröstlberg-Kruste: Proofing "seam down" and baking "seam down?"

I'm interested in baking the "Fröstlberg-Kruste" from Plötzblog.  I'm used to baking breads that have been proofed seam-side down, then turned over for the bake and and a natural break along fissures developed along these seams.  Could someone help clear this up?  

(transl.):

Round the dough and let it mature in the open proofing basket for 90 minutes with the end facing down. Rub the surface well with flour so that a nice grain can emerge. In the first hour, occasionally coat the cracks with flour.

Bake with the end down at 250 ° C falling to 220 ° C for 60-65 minutes without steam.

Does this mean we proof it, seam side down, rub flour over the developing cracks the first hour (now, the side facing up, towards us), and bake, with this side still up - e.g., same side down as in proofing, or do we flip the dough as per usual, with the former top-side - the one filled over with flour - now baking on the stone surface? 

is there something I'm missing from the German? ("Den Teig rundwirken und mit Schluss nach unten 90 Minuten..." and "Mit Schluss nach unten bei 250°C fallend auf 220°C 60-65 Minuten...")?

 

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, you got it right, Paul. 

Schluss is the tail or key - the knot that forms when you roll the ball of dough to shape it or to gather the dough to pinch it at the center to tighten it into a ball. Most bakers would call it 'seam'. You place it under the ball of dough in the basket and then you proof and transfer in the same position with the seam down and bake it with the tail still under the loaf. 

no flipping.  Schluss nach unten - seam down or seam 'under'.

This is the difference in outcomes with Schluss nach oben and Schluss nach unten

Source: https://www.kochtrotz.de/rezepte/glutenfreien-teig-dehnen-und-falten-mit-backmatte-und-der-trick-ohne-gaerkoerbchen-was-bedeutet-schluss-nach-oben-ode...

Bake in a preheated to 250C oven set to 220C for one hour w/o steam. Meaning you preheat your oven to 250C, then place loaf inside, set your oven temp to 220C and bake it like that.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Wonderful.  Perfect.  Thanks a lot, mariana!

MikeV's picture
MikeV

Exactly as Mariana says, the idea is to bake in the same orientation as the proof. That way the surface crack structure which forms during proofing is preserved on the final loaf.

The tricky part is actually making the transfer! This is sometimes referred to as "lupfen," and involves tossing the bread out of the banneton onto the receiving surface, so it stays seam-down. Like flipping an omelette this is something which requires some confidence and technique, both to hit the target and to avoid excessively degassing the bread. I haven't yet dared to do this directly into the Dutch oven I use for baking, it is a small target and landing the bread on the rim seems like it would be a disaster ...

Some further info and an example video:
https://brotdoc.com/tag/brot-lupfen/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynypjv5igi0

Cheers,
Mike

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Fantastic, thanks Mike, that is really helpful.  I think then this is the process I've seen sometimes described in English as "lifting," right?  If so, I could not for the life of me understand how it was actually done.  Nifty skill.  Yep, you won't find me trying to nail the landing in my DO oven either!

jl's picture
jl

Why not simply proof the loaf freestanding on a piece of parchment paper?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Not sure it would hold up, especially with this one, which he describes as taken quite ripe in proofing.  I've never had much luck with high-rye% doughs freestanding, especially those taken to a good proof level.

FWIW, I'm so fascinated by how so few ingredients in breadmaking can result in such a myriad of breads, and this was one really intrigued me by his description of its overnight mashing and promise of malty-sweetness.  Malty; so different from the addition of sugary elements.  I loved the bread and am eager to play more with natural enzymatic saccharification undertaken in processes like these.

Ironically, the loaf got stock on the rattan banneton (they're not yetr fully seasoned, as I have generally always used linen).  So lost some height, when it's already a self-described flatter loaf, but it delivers.  That maltiness is a wonderful addition to a really moist, flavorful crumb and nicely crunchy crust (partly those sugars, I expect, as well).

I'd only change the formula to larger loaves - thanks goes to mini-oven for advising on this.

mariana's picture
mariana

Bakers usually proof in bannetons to save on space, they place bannetons on shelves or on racks inside proofing cabinets.

Otherwise, sure, we can proof it freestanding if there is enough table space and temperature control. It is very normal to proof them freestanding. 

Earlier you posted a link to a YouTube video with such rye breads being proofed exactly so, freestanding in a bakery with the seam down and top crust with attractive cracks. So yes, you are right. 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68277/bit-flat

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

My memory is such crap.  I completely forgot that thread and post.  I stand corrected and would love to try again.  Thanks for the heads up and your posts there, jl and for the guidance and reminder, mariana.  I'm going back to my earliest ryes, which were the Hamelman Detmolders.  I could barely get any lift even with bannetons.  But that was awhile back, and I'm resolved to go back to try again.  That thread is excellent as "foundational," as I seem to like to call it.

Much appreciate it as always, you two. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to the German Link, one person's solution to getting the dough out of the banneton was to put parchment under the dough, then it's a simple matter of carefully lifting out the proofed dough.  The banneton holds the sides of the loaf up while it ferments. (And the parchment continues to add a little support while it bakes.)

 I've done this a lot using cardboard tissue boxes/parchment (even an oval sauna bucket) when the right sized banneton wasn't handy.  The cane design isn't the focus with this particular crust effect. Dont worry about the parchment sticking straight up on the sides after transferring although I do sometimes cut off the excess parchment.  Great freetanding loaf technique.  During baking the parchment comes away as the crust bakes.  It works quite well and for other breads too.  It's one way to slow down spread in mini ovens where the oven is small.

Is that your new oval banneton?  :) 

edit:  Don't know why but your post first came in this morning without comments.  Then just before I commented, the rest popped up. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Wonderful, thanks so much mini!  Elegant solution(s), and thank you for filling out the details of how and why it works (and how the cane pattern isn't important).

Banneton - boy, I sure wish so.  No, it's my 1 hg oval.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It might work for you, it might not -- getting the dough out of the banneton right side up (no parchment but floured banneton)

I have found a few tricks to loosening dough or check to see if the dough is loose enough to come out easily.  One is just to try to do a winnowing motion with the banneton, the second is to light bump the opposite side of the banneton down with a fist while holding in the basket from underneath.  This is a technique I learned for loosening pottery greenware out of plaster molds.  There are similar physics going on.  Let me see if I can find examples.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks mini.  That's beautiful lore.  The "opposite tap."  Something like a French omelette, to get it (an omelette, not a loaf!) to curl on itself?

BTW - it's been on my mind since the news broke here - but I hope you are safe from the terrible flooding, not sure if it has affected your particular area, but I hope you are out of harm's way.  I'm so saddened to see the terrible devastation. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 For your concerns.  There s unbelievable flooding going on all around but we remain high and dry (knock on wood). The rain comes down so fast and hard it is causing a lot of flash flooding especially in the for-Alps and Alps. Unbelievable amounts of water and mud and devastation.  Keep your prayers coming.  There are a lot of people needing help.  The Danube is rising.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

You and your family are in my thoughts, mini.  I'm so sorry.  In solidarity with you and all the people of Europe suffering this calamity.  - Paul