White + whole rye v. medium rye
Working my way through some German blogs (and Hamelman), and considering the issue of substitutions for German flours. I'm guided by hanseata's substitution guidelines, which include white rye+whole rye to approximate a flour like, say, DE rye 1150.
I find it difficult to find white rye without paying a lot for shipping. In addition I'm considerably influenced by Hamelman, whose book I've followed pretty closely over the years, Consequently, I've never used white rye.
So, I was just thinking of subbing medium rye for 1150 in a bauernbrot bake. That would be the first question - as a general idea, how do people in the same boat feel about the sub of roughly 1370 for 1150?
Second question. I've never used light rye because I've always followed Hamelman, as I said. So I don't even know the ingredient alone. How do people feel about the flour? Do you find you use it enough to warrant buying it online?
Considering you actually have no idea about the ash content of your "medium" rye (unless you asked the miller and that's what they told you?), you are trying too hard IMO. It's not a huge difference in ash, should be OK I think. You have to adjust the hydration anyway, and you shouldn't have a huge difference in fermentation speed with this substitution.
I have white rye. I've used it for two recipes (both can be found in my blog: "Nobleman's rye" and "Swedish rye"). In one of them, that I made twice, I just used it to approximate Russian medium rye by mixing with whole rye (since there is no medium rye to be found in the UK). Was a great bread, with seeds, very tasty and a great crumb. In the other one I used it on its own, and the bread was amazing, with bitter orange and some spices, very nice crumb. I'd love to repeat it at some point. But making a dough out of white rye is the most annoying experience ever, it's so sticky, just OMG! I have been thinking about repeating that bake, but tbh the thought of getting covered in the white rye dough deters me. Maybe I have more experience now and it would be better... Or need to get some medical gloves.
Thanks Ilya. First, forget the medical gloves. Those are to be reserved for yeast transfers from the brewery yeast brink to all connections. First you douse your gloved hands in denatured alcohol, next you grab your mini-torch... (yes, guy I worked with at a regional brewery did this - every time he did anything cold side, e.g., fermentation and cellaring. Fast hands. Psycho!)
I actually do know the specs as it comes from Baker's Authority. Not that it's a tremendous amount of good at the level of a retail bag, but still, it's there:
-I actually always seek out specs - if they're not listed, I'll contact the company and try. I just never consider matching ash or protein to be "it." The ingredients' complexity goes beyond these components so never too sanguine I've found the match just by going on these specs. A "best can do" and obviously that's what I'm asking, but more a qualitative than a quantitative question.
So if I understand you right, when blended and alone both, you enjoyed the result (even if it's a a major PITA). Probably worth it to pick up 10 lbs or so and compare the medium ("1370") with Hanseata's approximations ("1150" - 66% white, 34% whole. Hanseata, if you happen to be reading, thanks for all your contributions. I'm learning from you and enjoying it immensely, as stand-alone experience).
Your breads sound great, but then all your breads are magnificent. I'd love to bake them.
Thanks, Ilya.
Paul
Latex or nitrile gloves help a lot with stickiness. I used to always use them for making dough, but at some point there was a shortage because of the pandemic, and I think they are still not back to normal. Even the dough that sticks to them, can be removed much easier than from hands. Particularly useful for working with rye, give it a go if they are easy to get in your part of the world.
0.8 - 1.4% is a very wide range! That captures everything from white to medium rye. Not very helpful. While I understand what you mean that an ingredient is not fully characterized by 2 numbers, knowing and matching at least some objective data is better than just using whatever random ingredients. So I would also try to match ingredients as closely as I could - but you need some more precise information to do it :) Or just go for it!
I find the thin nitrile gloves very useful for dough manipulation. Recently I made some pizza dough mixed by hand and it required kneading several times over a period of 30 minutes. I sussed out I could slip my hands out of the gloves leaving them semi-immersed in the dough in between kneadings.
Sometimes you can get the nitrile gloves for a reasonable price on Ebay - only twice the price they used to be!
Lance
Indeed, they are really nice to use. I used to just leave them on top of the dough between folds. And thanks for the eBay tip Lance! I'm am tempted, but I know if there is a shortage it means even for people who actually really need them it might be more difficult to obtain them. Obviously for medical professionals, and also I know in our lab they have to juggle between different suppliers and pay more than normal to have them for work. So I would feel a little guilty for buying them for non-essential needs. On the other hand, one box is nothing compared to the actual amount that is used every day in any workplace, and would last a long time for me. So I still might get some...
No I was joking (well, no, the guy was real, but on their use I was joking). I hate them - too many years as a chef going on tactile feel for so many things - but I can see they're very useful here.
Yeah, no kidding. So is the protein range. That's why I was saying retail specs are pretty useless. As a brewer, I knew the lot and very tight specs on everything I used. Buying flour in 5 lb increments I know, forget it. (I must say, I do depend on specs from Central Milling, as I buy in 50 lb bags and they state simply what they are; never thought to ask if that's simply a representative figure, or a pretty bankable spec). And agree with you on knowing it is better than nothing, which is what I meant by "best can do." Probably should have said, "best we have."
I'll probably just try out both, as I mentioned. "Just go for it" could be a home baker's battle cry!
King Arthur's Organic Medium Rye has an ash content of 0.85 ± 0.05% and 72% extraction (per email from tech support). At 0% moisture, this would be 0.99%, closer to a light rye than a medium rye. You could try that if your local Woodman's carries it (ours just south of the Cheddar Curtain does).
However, I just opened my bag of KA medium rye and compared it to Bay State Milling's Medium Rye (from NY Bakers; spec. 1.20–1.40% at 14% moisture, 1.40–1.62% at 0% moisture). TBH, I can't tell the difference just by looking at them, but I don't have a sample of Bay State Light Rye for comparison.
As I like more fiber in my breads anyway, I may just stick with a medium rye for all breads that call for light or medium rye.
Thanks Alcophile, that's really helpful. Woodman's often carries stuff I can't find elsewhere and they completely dropped from memory so thanks for that, too,
We don’t order a lot of nitrile gloves at work because they are so much more expensive than latex gloves. It wasn’t until a little while ago that they became more regularly available again at the medical suppliers we order from. Nitrile gloves are great if you can get them and afford them.
Benny
Don’t forget, the gloves can be re-used a number of times. Like Lance, I also remove the gloves and leave then in the covered dough container if more handling is required.
Wash and dry them upon completion and store for the next time. They will eventually tear easily, then new gloves are used to replace the old.
I don't use gloves and I don't have problems with clean up. (Wait until you get to einkorn!) Learn how to wet your hands. It made a BIG big difference in my handling of rye. A sturdy silicone spatula or spoon is another useful tool in getting the flour wet. ...and don't let rye slurry or dough dry on anything except baking parchment and you'll be fine.
Why white rye is called "white" is beyond me. It all turns tan or gray when it gets wet. It's a finer grind of whole grain. My Austrian fine organic rye flour from the supermarket is most likely "white" with its protein content of 9g per 100g flour. Fiber 14g. Carbs 60g. No ash number info strange enough. Guess all that fiber is ashy enough.
When I get my hands on rye in a new location, no matter what it is (med, coarse, whatever) I just plug it into my standard familiar formula and see what it does. Most likely I have to adjust hydration (holding back at first) watch the times carefully to compare and usually come out just fine. Aroma of the flour and expiration dates are very important.
Thanks mini. I appreciate the viewpoint - the experiential thing with hydration as a variable, over searching for "the" rye (in line with what Mike is saying above, it seems). Will do.
Man, that has got to be one of the wussiest states of being one can be. Talk about chastened. :)
The recipe author (Lutz Geißler) actually gives his own answer to this in one of his "Q&A" podcasts, when a listener asks if it's OK to use 1370 instead of 1150 rye flour in his recipes. He answers that he typically uses 1370 for his recipe development, but because 1150 is more commonplace in many regions, he converts all his recipes over to 1150 because otherwise blog/book readers complain! Therefore: go for it and maybe add a bit of extra water as needed.
My own feeling: the devil is in the details of that "as needed;" it is hard to know the right texture when baking the bread for the first time. You may get better results if you invest the energy in baking the same recipe multiple times with the same flour, than in swapping out flours every time in search of the "right mix."
Thanks Mike. I haven't listened to the podcasts because my German is virtually non-existent. I can parse written German well enough but am lost with conversational German. I worked for a German chef once so it's limited to very little kitchen stuff. (I recently found my mother's bloodline is Bavarian, all the way through to the early 2nd millennium, likely more. I have no excuse not to torture myself with acquiring another language - and such a language! - at 60). Still, it would be worthwhile to listen to these. Over and over.
I think that's an excellent point - learn the rye's behavior rather than switching around looking for "the" right one (feels related in its way to mini's comments above). I hear you.
As it turns out, the medium I have is KA's organic anyway, per alcophile's comments (thanks again alcophile).
My German is also quite rudimentary, but engaging with material on a topic you find interesting is a good way to learn! And fortunately for the written stuff on the internet there's now Google Translate ...
I agree with those, you can interchange 1150 and 1370 and there won't be much difference. If the bread seems light you can always ligthen medium rye with white rye or APF.
You can make some pretty amazing breads using white rye, but they may require more effort and skill than a typical rye loaf.
Thanks Suave, Went with the KA medium, which seems great. Just finished Lutz's version of "Pinzgauer Bauernbrot according to Roswitha Huber". Smaller unbaked, 632g? I compare it to Brotdoc's formula which calls an 1125 loaf a "medium" loaf. Just wondering if there's a typical range for this type of "farmer's bread." (I bought Roswitha's book).
Loaf photo, crumb to come later:
Edit: Both Björn's and Lutz's have more residual flour than I'm used to. I can't recall with certainty, but I thought I even saw somewhere this is customary for this bauernbrot, or perhaps bauernbrot generally?
Input on that would be appreciated. "No-no" according to Calvel, but this isn't French!
I also have a really ugly seam-break. I like rustic breads proofing seam down, no scoring, and this kind of break, but it's obvious Björn shaped to a far better degree. No soup for me.
Crumb. I really love this bread! Crust is crunchy but thin enough for pleasurable eating (not thin enough - an area for improvement), tastes really good, with just the subtle backdrop of the bread spices. This is an eating bread, a soup or stew bread, and not a bread for smoked or cured salmon or the like. But it is an exciting prospect, with a lot of practice ahead.
Love that crumb! Not too wet, not too dry, even browning of the crust all around. Almost looks like it could have come out of the oven sooner, depends on how you like your crust. You mention softer, which comes a day later in a closed container or box. A glaze or a dunk under water with the hot loaf will also soften a hard baked crust. Brushing a hot loaf with whole milk makes a shiny crust. I use this trick with my rye cookies as well.
Hubby says try it with the fish, open faced. He takes a slice like yours, a thin layer of cool saltfree butter, sardines (canned,deboned & gutted, split) with super thin sliced onion to top, maybe super thin sliced pickled pepper. Cold beer. "So much better than with white bread."
Scoring. You can score firmer rye loaves before the final proof. I mean, roll the loaf in flour, cut the score where you want the loaf to open up. Hold the cuts back together as you lay the dough score side down into the floured banneton. The score will reopen as the loaf bakes because once cut, the matrix won't seal itself shut like a wheat dough would. Try it and see if you like the effect.
I like the typical rip effect of seam side down in the fermenting basket as well. German word for banneton is Gärkorb (rhymes with bear corb.)
I often think of 84% hydration high rye as feeling more like overground hamburger meat or a meatloaf than a bread dough.
I love rye bread with salted herring and onions. And the best way to enjoy is with cold beetroot soup! That's my favourite lunch on a hot summer day.
Wonderful, thanks, mini. Will look forward to trying your method next one, sounds perfect. Your hubby's sandwich calls for a cool afternoon outside, with an excellent, malty helles!
(Not your sandwiches - but a brewer friend and I were exchanging one day on the wonder of Onset oysters. He sent this pic to me - and it connotes so much of what I loved about my late grandfather-in-law's Estonian culture...the post-sauna beer, open-faced sandwiches, and delectables outside - thought you might appreciate the sensibility):
Speaking of bannetons, I would really like to try the larger oval loaves brotdoc loves to write - proofed in a 2kg oval banneton. Not finding much luck finding the size here in the States (I have many larger linen-lined round baskets in that size, but nothing oval, in the brotform style at 2kg+). I did find a source from Europe but the shipping is quite expensive - $60 US for a $22 banneton. I'd do it as a one-off just because it would be great to have this option but just curious if you might know of a good source for brotforms in this size?
sure you don't have some Finnish blood too?
Here's an interesting quote from a rattan basket maker: "Today, proofing baskets made of rattan replace the older brotforms made of braided straw, which were popular until the end of the 19th century."
Wonder what those loaves looked like. Doesn't San Francisco Baking Institute sell bannetons? Oval? Have to look it up. Yup, a small one. https://sfbi.com/shop/
I bought a cherry wood basket in Pennsylvania that was a flat piece of wood cut with a band saw in a spiral. When stretched, it makes a oval banneton shape. With a little sand paper, the corners could be rounded more. Got a carpenter friend nearby with all his fingers?
Finnish! I barely made it to matrimony with my Estonian mafia-clan, lol. Didn't help matters when this S. Californian born and bred is such a bloody sauna-heat wimp, or heat in general. Much prefer 65F to even 65C (actually prefer 40F, but that's another thing altogether).
Thanks on the banneton info. I think I got all my linen-baskets from SFBI, all the way to 14" across. I've got several round and oval rattan forms, but they top out at about 1 kg. For some of brotdoc's formulas, he calls for a full 2 kg (and to be honest, I'd love to go big or go home). No one in the U.S. seems to be similarly enthralled.
As a matter of fact, I do actually have a friend, a luthier, with all 10 fingers yet with him. I pay him bread and he builds me little things i gorgeous wood. Some, not so small, like a traditional alpine cheese press.
Hmm...thanks for the idea....!
This looks good. Like the size of the oval basket. Lots of practical tips.
By the way, looks like you're having whey too much fun! Do you make your own cheese? WI is known for that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-8IpJCV8LU
Can't wait to pass this by Chris - that is one of the coolest things I've ever seen! Thanks, mini!
Whey, whey too much fun!
Oh, I was in love with traditional cheesemaking (traditional brewing, for that matter). I had ambitions of opening up a small creamery using the raw milk of a small herd of Ayrshires I knew and ioved, best possible milk - raised on pastured grass, intensively managed and rotationally grazed. The lad Charlie and I having a midwinter chat years ago, and my girl Lola - she of the one horn, at right in the barn photo - ready for an afternoon post-prandial snooze.
The seasons came through in the milk, and especially in the long-aged, daily washed Abondances:
-the seasonality showed up in the finished wheels. Herbaceous and floral in mid-spring through summer flush, a richer, fuller, more decadent quality if less "fresh field" in mid-autumn-winter. Otherwise, I made reblochons, and both tommes de grise, and tommes with a morge wash much like the 20-lbs Abondances (themselves little cousis to the massive 40 kg Beauforts - lauded by no less than Pliny the Elder):
Alas, the little imp nature had other plans for this body. So did WI - we're known for cheese, but most don't know it's more an intensely concentrated, heavily industrialized dairy state - and they grip hard on state regulations, all designed to forestall artisanal, traditional places like I'd planned. Adjoining states are far more friendly to these types of smaller craft places. Things are changing, largely through the joint efforts of Amish farmers wanting to produce and sell their raw milk, and small cheesemakers who want to work with them. It will come.
Anyway, no, a 2kg loaf sure hurts less than a 40 gallon-vat's worth of cooked curds!
Well, this is pretty funny.
Guess which one was scored?
Guess which one was proofed, seam side up?
Trick question - neither!, lol.
Um, I scored both. Is it not magnificent? One, over the top, the other, apparently not enough or I overworked it in tweaking shaping. Both proofed score/seam down. I really must stop playing with my food. Looks like "Brotdoc Pinzgauer Bauernbrot, Take III" is in the immediate offing. :)
small. I know for fact that larger rye loaves taste better and loose less moisture in baking. I don't bake a high rye loaf using less than 500g flour. Smaller loaves seem to dry out too much during a bake and rolls are very tricky to prevent making pucks out of them. You may find that rye rolls are often rolled in seeds to help hold in moisture during the bake.
Whoops, missed this when I posted above. Thanks for this too, mini.