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How to fix a proteolytic starter? Help

jackharv's picture
jackharv

How to fix a proteolytic starter? Help

Hello everybody,

First time posting on here. Like many i've got into baking to the point of obsession over lockdown. Things were generally getting better and better but my last 4 batches of dough have got significantly worse and I've noticed that my starter has become proteolytic. 

 

I maintain a twice daily feeding schedule but i've been messing around mixing up flours and flour types for experimentation and it's all gone wrong from there. 

 

Recently I've been keeping my starter in a makeshift fermentation chamber at 26c (around 80f) to try and maximise consistency and produce better bread. The irony is not lost on me.

 

Anyway its a 100% white liquid starter (gilchester organics flour) fed twice daily at a 1:4:4 ratio and recently i've noticed that it seems to be proteolytic before it even peaks, I definitely had a couple of late feedings in a row last week but am surprised its deteriorated that quickly especially at that feeding ratio.

 

I'm trying to find sources on how to nurse it back to health without having to make it a stiff starter or add pineapple juice or the like. It's been 3 days so far off really consistent feedings and it hasn't got much better. Doubling to tripling within 6 hours but no gluten network to be seen.

 

The smell is nice, not overly acidic, fermentation seems to be consistent but the starter consistency is closer to slime than it is cohesive.

 

Any ideas would be great. 

 

p.s. will upload pics and or video at next feeding as well if that helps.

 

Thanks, Jack

phaz's picture
phaz

Standard procedure for a wonky starter is a little starter, a lot of food, warmth and time, throw in stirring often and you're good to go. When it starts reacting normally again it should be good. Enjoy! 

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Hi Phaz,

 

Thanks for the reply, I've been doing that for the last 3 or 4 days with twice daily feedings of 1:4:4 ratio kept at 26c. The problem is i don't know if i should build it to peak or let it gain some activity and then refresh before the gluten dissolves. Any thoughts?

 

phaz's picture
phaz

I would have went with something like 1-50-50 and stir a couple times a day at regular intervals. Feed normally when there is no longer a rise. Enjoy! 

JettBakes's picture
JettBakes

Hi phaz, I am going to take your advice here to correct my proteolytic starter and feed it as you mentioned above, stirring a couple of times too. Question: Is one 1-50-50 feed generally enough to correct an overly acidic starter or do I need to do several before I resume a normal feeding schedule? Thanks in advance. Jett

Benito's picture
Benito

The buffering effects of a 1:50:50 feed is way more than enough to correct the acidity of your starter particularly if you feed it with whole grain.

JettBakes's picture
JettBakes

Thank you! Will a 5g seed (5-250-250) be enough or should I go bigger? Have you done this before? How long does it take to make its way though all that flour? Sorry for the many questions. 

Benito's picture
Benito

I honestly think you don’t need to go that high, use a whole grain flour preferably whole rye.  Whole rye has a really high ash content and flours with a high ash content are associated with being better buffers.  Even a single feed at 1:6:6 will drop the acid level.  Watch is closely, don’t let it go past peak and fully collapse.  You could then just refrigerate it or give it another 1:6:6 feed and you really should be fine.

phaz's picture
phaz

That ratio is very high, you'd be basically starting a new starter. Stick with something like 50 to 1. It may need higher, but that's a decent starting point. And stir regularly, like every 12 hrs. How long, till it stops rising. Done this before - many times.

And the real reason to do this. Many say to reduce acidity. This is true but not the main concern at this point. The high feed rato is meant to address the cause of the wonky starter (any wonky starter for that matter). Always surprises me that doesn't get mentioned. There always a reason things get funky and that is what should be the focus. Enjoy! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Jack, how long does it take to peak and then start to fall?  Is it going many hours after peak before you feed it?

Letting your starter continue to ferment after it has run out of food is what will cause it to get very acidic with a pH much below 4 and allow the proteolytic enzymes to become highly active.

If you want to continue to feed twice per day and keep it at the current temperature and hydration, you’ll need to give it much higher ratio feeds.  you’ll want to increase the feed such that it will peak just before the 12 hour mark of the next feed.

If you want to continue twice per day and keep the 1:4:4 feedings you’ll need to let it ferment at a much lower temperature so that it hits peak just before the next feed.

Now those two things are more for the long term, so in the immediate you’ll want to give it high ratio feeds and refresh at peak.  You will also reduce the acid load of the starter by switching to a whole grain flour.  The whole grains have more buffers in them that will reduce the acidity immediately and by doing a high ratio feed you’ll transfer much less acid into your refreshed starter.

Benny

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Hi Benny,

 

So i had it at a 50/50 whole grain to white bread flour mix and had really nice activity out of it for the last few weeks, prior to that it was 100% white flour again. I was feeding it at it's peak on twice daily feedings, it probably took about 6 hours to triple and then would creep up for a few more hours, stay domed up until around 10 hours and then id feed it again around the 12 hour mark with a slightly cooler water temperature.

 

Basically been trying to find the sweet spot to allow me to do consistent timings for the feed, but haven't quite found it yet. Once i switched back to all white I had a couple of overnight feeds where the starter had collapsed significantly by the time i got up in the morning. Whats surprising is how quickly it seemed to turn.

 

I've just fed it 20% rye 80% white flour to try and encourage better enzymatic activity but do you think i should switch to 100% wholegrain? Also when you say high ratios what would you suggest? 1:5:5? 1:6:6?

 

thanks, Jack

Benito's picture
Benito

The consistency of a white flour starter is quite a bit looser than one with some or all whole grain.  As such, it won’t hold the gases as well and in my experience will start to fall more rapidly after peak.  If you are going to use a while flour starter, make sure you really stir a lot to develop the gluten in it, that will help it hold more of the fermentation gases longer.  However, it won’t be as resistant to acid build up.

Have you just considered taking advantage of the refrigerator?  After you have reduced your starter’s high acid load, by doing several high ratio feeds making sure you don’t let it go much past peak before feeding it again, then you could refrigerate it after it reaches peak.  Then do the same once per day or once per week if you like?

Is there a reason you don’t use the refrigerator Jack?  Are you baking that often that you need to keep it out and ready?

Benny

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Hi Benny,

 

I've been baking round my work schedule so for the last 2 or 3 months i've baked most days, figured i wanted to keep the starter as active as possible hence the temp being left at 26 for strong activity.

 

That's a really good point about developing the gluten in the starter during refreshes I hadn't thought about that before. Do you recommend going to a 100% whole wheat starter until it's healthy or is a 80/20 white/rye ok?

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve gone through periods where my starter previously fed with whole red fife went sluggish.  I’ve since switched to feeding it 100% whole rye and haven’t been disappointed in any of the levains I’ve made since the change.  My white levains used to be sluggish never even doubling.  Now my white levains grow 3-4 times usually 4.  So I can now make new breads without fear that they won’t ferment well.

If it were me, I’d switch to 100% whole rye at 100% hydration.  That’ll get your starter rehab done quickly.  High ratio feeds to reduce the acid load.

Benny

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Ok ill give it a go. Do you mean high ratio like phaz says 1:50:50 to effectively reset the starter or more like a ratio to suit a 12 hour refresh? Thanks guys

Benito's picture
Benito

Do what suits your schedule, so whatever ratio that gets you to the point that you’ll need to feed it and your starter being at peak.  You will also likely find that after several feedings like this you’ll need to feed it more as the starter becomes stronger.  I forget how many hours your starter it peaking at now with 1:4:4 so definitely more than that, 1:6:6, 1:8:8.  I think I’d need to do 1:10:10 to make it anywhere near 12 hours.  Currently at 76ºF if I feed my starter 1:6:6 it is past peak at 8 hours.

 

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Thanks man i'll keep you posted. Appreciate the help!

jackharv's picture
jackharv

So an update. 

 

I decided to use the starter to make and maintain 3 to see which one performed best. Kept to twoce daily feedings at 1:5:5 ratios and fed at peak. 

100% rye

50/50 white bread flour/rye

80/20 white bread flour/rye

They all seem to be performing ok but the 80/20 bread/rye is still proteolytic and gluten is dissolved by the time of feeding. 

The 50/50 had more than tripled for this mornings feed so i made a levain with it using 80/20 white bread/rye at a 1:2:2 ratio. It tripled in 4 hours so looked good so i made a dough with it

85%white flour

5%wholegrain wheat

5%wholegrain spelt

5%wholegrain rye

78% hydration

2% salt

 

The levain was 12.5% of total dough weight. Autolysed without starter and salt for 2/12 hours then slap and folded to almost full gluten development and bulked  27 degrees for 5 hours with coil folds for the first 2 hours and hourly coil folds every hour with a final coil fold to release the dough from the tub. 

The dough looked great after the slap and fold. Really supple and smooth and carrried on strengthening up until hour 3.......then it went downhill. Hour 4 fold showed some very slight tears and by hour 5 the first fold basically made the whole dough fall apart into a slimy mess. 

 

Basically in a long roundabout way, how long can i expect this starter to get back to full health? I want to bake bread haha

 

 

 

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Jack, for one thing, I think you need to feed the starter for a few more days to really get that acid down.  Is it really taking 12 hours to reach peak when you’re only feeding 1:5:5?

Can you share any photos of the dough in its various stages of “tearing”?  Did you bake it and taste it to see if in fact it was really much more acidic than normal.  Did you taste your starter, taste your dough at the point that it was tearing?  Was it actually very acidic tasting.

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Hey man,

   I didnt get any pictures will get some at the next bake and will show as much of the process as possible. There wasnt anything to bake i tried to rescue it but it was almost like starter consistency by hour 5. Slimy mess. Its not the flour as ive baked 90/10 white/wholegrain loaves at 80% and theyve come out great so the flour can definitely handle it.    None of the starters smell overly acidic. Again though ive bever used rye in a starter so not accustomed to rhe ebbs and flows of any of them.    I Will get hourly progress photos of the starters when i feed them after work tomorrow but need to wait for a day off to spend all day with it and watch its movements. The 100% rye seems to be very happy but its drying out a touch on the top i guess due to its thicker 100% hydration consistency. i'll try and build a levain with it tomorrow and see how it behaves.  I haven't tasted any of the starters except accidentlly to be honest. They all peak at slightly different times at the moment but they all peak within 4-7 hours generally but keep a dome and slowly slowly slowy rise for the following hours until they sit at peak for a few more hours until the dome goes away and there are dimples and lots of open bubbles. I'll get some pictures tomorrow sorry it's obviously hard to explain without pictures
Benito's picture
Benito

At how many hours does the flattening of the dome occur Jack?  You do not want to wait much past that before you feed your starter otherwise it will continue to be acidic.

If you want to really get the acid down fast, do a few big feeds of 1:10:10.  Feeding it too early will lower the acid load but you may then also start to dilute your microbes too much.

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Thanks for the tip man. I've been following tips that say to wait until its about to collapse to refresh as that shows true peak activity. The dome is usually gone for a few hours and the surface becomes dimpled before i refresh it so its starting to show the early signs. Should i try feeding a touch earlier?

Benito's picture
Benito

Peak to me is when the dome is flattening and just barely starting to collapse.  I’ve been trying to get you to feed at this peak, too far past and your acid is building up again as the microbes run out of food.  I used to measure pH of my starter and past peak it can get down to 3.4 which is super acidic and will be very proteolytic, you don’t want that.  Feed sooner at peak.

jackharv's picture
jackharv

perfect man thank you. im obviously carrying too much acid over with each feeding. will probably have to alter my ratios again

jackharv's picture
jackharv

also, Logic tells me that if i feed the starter early rather than waiting for it to peak, the acid load will drop over 1 or 2 feedings and then i can return to regular schedules. Thats what im trying to do right? drop the acid load carried over in the starter?

jackharv's picture
jackharv

Hey Benny, sorry to keep pestering you but you've been very helpful so far. 

 

So i tried building a white levain with the rye starter and the same thing ended up happening again, at the 5 hour mark the dough just started falling apart.

 

I've got a fresh 100% rye starter on the go at day 8 so far and have converted the white starter to 100% rye which i made 2 700g loaves with today. Fermentation was a touch on the sluggish side but at the 5 hour mark they had risen by around 30-35%. I try to rise my doughs to around the 50% mark as i prefer shaping them with that amount of structure and the crumb i get out of them. I will post photos of the breads tomorrow but i'm not expecting anything fantastic. Frankly i'm just glad they didn't dissolve into a sloppy mush. 

 

Now, rye starters look to behave veerrrry differently to the white starter i was previously using. I was wondering if you had any tips on analysing peak ripeness for the rye starter and which ratios you're feeding at?

I'm currently still on twice daily feeds but it seems to remain at peak (around 2-2 1/2 times volume). From what i've read rye starters are much less needy and i'm loving the smell and rapid activity that comes from it, i'm just wondering what to look for when trying to analyse perfect refresh times. 

 

Things i 'know' to look for;

 

ripe tangy fruit smell

Large air pockets

 

That's about all i know haha. Is the window for refreshing a rye starter a lot larger? 

 

it's wholemeal rye by the way, been feeding at 1.3.3 1.4.4. 1.5.5 1.6.6 and even 1.7.7 schedules and they all seem to be at peak at the 12 hour mark so i'm confused.

Benito's picture
Benito

“So i tried building a white levain with the rye starter and the same thing ended up happening again, at the 5 hour mark the dough just started falling apart.“

Are you referring to the main dough built from the white levain here or the levain itself.  You don’t mention the levain build ratio.

Rye starter consistency takes a bit of getting used to.  But you will still see the same behavior.  As it rises you see a nice dome, remember what that dome looks like.  As soon as you see that dome flattening a bit, it has peaked.  Those feedings should in theory peak at different times.  Higher the ratio, the longer it takes the microbes to consume all the food.  I’m not sure what temperature you’re fermenting them at, but at 80ºF that 1:3:3 feed could peak between 3-4 hours while the 1:6:6 could peak 5-6 hours.  

It seems to me this concept of peaking is the issue, no?  I don’t have any photos to show you but I’ll do a quick drawing.

The top one is rising, not yet at peak, the bottom one has peaked, the dome is becoming flatter.  This is when you should feed the starter again.

jackharv's picture
jackharv

you're quite the artist haha.

 

Sorry i should have explained.  i built a white levain offshoot for today's dough at 1.4.4, levain was 10% of total dough weight which worked. The levain that didn't work was from about 3 days ago and it seems now that the starter is healthier to the point where it isn't eating the dough. It has some work to get to the activity that i want but at least i was able to make bread today.

 

I'm keeping the starter around 24c at the moment so do you have any ballpark figures to aim for a 12 hour peak? That diagram is actually really helpful, there is a slight crust on the dome that feels slightly hollow once its been at its peak height for a while. The flattening of the dome makes a lot of sense. I'm off work now for a few days so i can monitor the starter and see where its at. Some tips on ratios around the 23-24c mark would be great to work off though.

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

If only I had an Apple Pencil and some artistic abilities....

It already sounds like you have solved the proteolytic starter issue.

I’d be only guessing but for 23-24ºC if I made a starter lets say and fed it 1:6:6 it would have peaked in around 8-9 hours at that temperature I’m guessing.

jackharv's picture
jackharv

just out of interest do you keep your ambient at a twice a day schedule as well? i've heard of lots of people doing 3 feeds a day but it's already controlling my life at 3 feeds a day?

 

I've read Trevor J Wilson's Open Crumb Mastery and treating it like gospel has served me pretty well so far. He mentions not diluting your starter with too much food when you refresh to maximise activity. maybe i'll try a bunch of different ratios tomorrow as an experiment and see how they get on. Haven't been able to find a huge amount on maintaining rye starters online, lots on how to start one though.

Benito's picture
Benito

I keep only one starter and once it peaks, it goes into the fridge only coming out for a minute to build a levain a couple of times per week.  Then after 7 days I will feed it again.

JettBakes's picture
JettBakes

Thanks Benito, much appreciated. Can you offer any advice for speeding up peak time? Or maybe just healing my starter will do the trick. TIA! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Even if you feed whole wheat or whole rye, 1:5:5 or 1:6:6 the initial pH will go up to 5.5 or so.  You can keep it warm around 82ºF to speed things up.  If you are really worried, do a couple of feedings and you really should be fine.

Benny

JettBakes's picture
JettBakes

Ok, will do. I typically keep it at around 80 degrees, give or take a couple degrees. I generally wrap my starter jar in a folded towel and then wrap that in an electric kombucha wrap w/ a low, medium or high setting that I set based on ambient temp abs it holds at around 80 degrees. It’s a lot cheaper than a proofing box and pretty reliable. Thanks again for your help!