The elusive oven spring thing
First time posting here but hoping I might get some better insights from the more experience people that are here on this forum.
Yeah, it's the oven spring thing. I have been doing sourdough for several years, so I know the basics, but I ahve been consistently thwarted in my efforts to get that really "explosive" oven spring I see from others (sometimes frustratingly enough, for first-time bakers. The reason this quest matters to me as that I like to make soup bowls and also use brea for gifts, so there is an element of eye candy at play.
I feel like I've stared down all the usual suspects:
- vigorous, fresh starter Yes, it has nearly tripled by the time I put it to work.
- flour protein I use strong flour, including most recently whole grain flours from Central Milling and Janie's Mill. I often mix in 10% spelt.
- autolyse Anywhere from an hour to 4 hours
- fermentation typically 4-5 hours at dough temp of 78-80F. usually do 4 stretches and folds over first 1.5 hours, then sit for bulk ferment. I usually stop when it has risen by 60-70% but have done more and less with no appreciable change. I usually go by the condition of the dough -- puffy but not fragile, large bubbles appearing on surface, many bubbles within dough, doming in the bowl, etc.
- pre-shaping and shaping This is where I still wonder if I'm doing something wrong. I have followed many of the best practices you see on YouTube -- envelope pre-shape, final shaping with pulling dough across dry counter to firm ball, etc.
- cold proofing. Always at least eight hours in 40F refrigerator
- scoring is typically at 1/2" and across the whole dough. I always mist the dough and often add a couple fo ice cubes under the parchment paper to create additional steam.
- 475/500F oven in cast iron covered cooker for 20 minutes, another 20 at 425/450
That may not offer much of an obvious flaw to address, but I am determined to figure it out, and hope I might enlist the generosity of this group in that journey. Thanks in advance.
Might try stopping retarding after 25% rise or so. My dough seems to keep rising in the fridge for several hours, though I generally am refrigerating 3x 800-900 g so more thermal mass than a single loaf batch. I have been getting my best results with less room temp bulk fermentation. Maybe just an hour or so after 4 stretch and folds.
Good luck,
Phil
I don't know that I've ever gone that low -- concerned about under-proofing -- but I'll give that a try on the next one.
I did find a photo from a while back of two of my "mini-loaves (250g flour weight). I recall the higher one was left in the fridge longer than the lower one, so there might be something there. Still not that dramatic oven spring I seek.
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Hey! Here's how I see it
100% is your Baked Bread
20% is your Oven Spring
20% is your Proofing
it means that I have to do my Bulk Fermentation up to 60% only, does it make sense?
A loaf of bread can only spring to its max 100% and if you have proof it to almost its max you won't have enough for your oven spring which in return you will have a much more open crumb.
You can either adjust as well like 70% Bulk fermentation/10% Proofing and 20% Oven Spring to have and open crumb with a descent oven spring, I don't count cold fermentation on proofing as for me it pauses the dough from proofing.
let me know what you think.
Hey! Here's how I see it
100% is your Baked Bread
20% is your Oven Spring
20% is your Proofing
it means that I have to do my Bulk Fermentation up to 60% only, does it make sense?
A loaf of bread can only spring to its max 100% and if you have proof it to almost its max you won't have enough for your oven spring which in return you will have a much more open crumb.
You can either adjust as well like 70% Bulk fermentation/10% Proofing and 20% Oven Spring to have and open crumb with a descent oven spring, I don't count cold fermentation on proofing as for me it pauses the dough from proofing.
let me know what you think.
The math makes sense, although I wonder how we arrive at 100% on that I see loaves that are the same dough weight as mine that look like soccer balls. Mine aren't bad but look more like something Tom Brady might sneak into the equipment bag for the Super Bowl. So, I can appreciate that there is only so big a loaf can be (theoretical 100%), but then I fall short of that. It may not have been clear in my initial post, but I am generally at 60% now and have tried roughly 20% swings either way with no change. Baffling...
It sounds like you have the fermentation right. Without seeing the crumb of your bread it is hard to say about final proofing though. You say your fridge is 40ºF but is that the setting or have you measured the actually temperature on the shelf your dough sits on during final proofing? Many fridges are quite a bit off and then when there are multiple opening and closings of the fridge door the temperature can vary wildly. Place a glass of water on the shelf that the bread will sit on and then take its temperature several hours later. The temperature might be warmer than you think.
If wonder if your bread is overproofed as that would cause it to have less ovenspring. As I mentioned it is hard to say without seeing the crumb but the pale crust in areas suggests possible overproofing because as the dough overproofs the microbes have consumed a lot more of the sugars than usual. Without those sugars it is hard for the crust to caramelize.
Thanks for responding. I have a thermometer in the fridge so I know it is at 40F. If we were trying to solve for over-proofing during cold proofing stage, it would make sense to consider that a culprit. My overnights barely rise in the banneton, so that does not appear to be the problem itself. As I will note in other replies, I ahve bulk fermented from anywhere between 30% or 80% rise with no improvement in oven spring.
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I intrigued by your observation on the pallid crust on the sides. That might be just from where the parchment paper lies, but your science is right if the sugars are exhausted.
You should be able to upload photos here without hosting them elsewhere by clicking on the tiny photo icon which is the one furthest to the right above the comment typing section.
Another observation I would make now seeing your crumb is that the bottom crust isn't as dark as your upper crust. I wonder if you are baking a bit too high in your oven and not getting enough heat in the bottom and then also too much in the crust causing a lack of spring. Also if you bake and harden the crust too early you'll prevent it from stretching out enough to allow good oven spring.
I'm in the right crowd with this level of observation and suggestions -- thank you.
This is why is is hard to look at just one photo. In this case, I am house-sitting at my daughter's -- different oven, and I put a sheet pan in the lower rack under the cast iron cooker to make sure the bottom did not burn, hence the lightness. I have done many other loaves with a darker crust and no better oven spring. I, like you, am a fan of a hot, pre-heated bakign environment, but there is one very popular sourdough baker out there -- Elaine Boddy -- who recommends a cold start, so I'm not sure what role pre-hearing plays when hers come out so well.
Right now, from these good suggestions, the new plan is less room temp bulk fermentation and more cold retard, and see if that works.
The issues I see with a cold start are that it gives the dough more time to possibly spread which could alter its oven spring.
Post your next bake with your changes.
This is my bo
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Following the advice above, here is #2. I shortened the bulk ferment time, 75% hydration. Better, but still not the soccer ball burst I see often with others, and the top of the dough did not peel back much.
I'm not too worried about the lack of ear; I am at my daughter's house and had to use a kitchen blade rather than my normal very thin double-edged razor blade. However, I am thinking the issue might be either the depth of scoring (currently 1/4-1/2") or something in how I'm building dough strength (maybe too much?).
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One comment regarding your score is to suggest a score more midline down the dough rather than way over to one side as I see you’ve done there. A more midline score will allow a bigger burst in oven spring upwards. A more lateral score will direct the oven spring more to the side.
If you are using the top heating element, what we call the broiler in the US, that will set the top crust too soon and restrict expansion. Avoid convection mode and top-heat if your oven allows.
I appreciate you raising that since you probably help people with a range of experience, but no.... I don't use the broiler to bake bread! I actually left it in there for 2-3 more minutes than normal to get a bit more caramelization.
As well, I am a steam freak; I mist the top of the loaf and often will slip an ice cube into the pre-heated cooker to give in an extra boost.
From your earlier note, I'll focus on scoring a little higher, maybe even a cross score. The loaf does look like it is straining against too much surface area.
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I scored more toward the top this time. Not that balloon oven spring I seek, but better. I'll keep fiddling, but thanks to your help, I think I'm on the right path.
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