September 2, 2020 - 1:27pm
I was told to put some dough in a very small jar while i'm doing bulk ferment and wait for it to double. Is that right?
I was told to put a small amount of dough in a small, straight sided jar alongside the rest of my dough while it bulk ferments. Once the dough in the small jar has double, bulk ferment is done. Does that sound right to you? I've done it once so far and got a pretty nice bread but thought maybe it was a tad overproofed.
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If the bread was good, it sounds about right, although I would suggest to try different levels of fermentation. Enjoy!
With sourdough, the dough needs to grow only about 30-50%, otherwise you run the risk of overproofing.
Apparently, if you want to refrigerate your dough, you let the dough in the jar double. if you dont want to refrigerate, you let the dough in the jar get to 1.5x the initial height, shape, then wait until it gets to double the size.
I just read about that also! Really helps, even for final rise. I would overproof far too often until I started using one.
I use a spice jar, but looking for something shorter to be easier to clean.
Bunch of info/ideas at:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64897/aliquot-jar-determine-bulk-fermentation-rise
Thank you so much for the link! Yeah, i use the thinnest jar I can find, which are usually taller than I'd like. I have to ask, do you ever notice a discrepancy between how fast the dough in the jar rises vs the dough in the main bowl? I swear a couple times the dough in the main bowl has easily doubled while the dough in the jar is like, 1.25-1.5x the amount it initially was, and waiting for it to double would cause the dough to overproof. I'd really love to hear your thoughts on this! Thanks!
I've not seen an appreciable difference. My jar usually sits on the plate covering the boule, w both then under a towel.
I’ve been posting about the aliquot jar for a while now. It has been really helpful to me and most people who have tried it. It is easy to use and most of use have a small narrow jar that can be used already at home.
Just keep one small thing in mind, each time we fold our dough whether it is through coil folds or stretch and folds etc, we are degassing it somewhat. The dough in the aliquot jar isn’t going through those degassing manipulations. As a result, if a recipe says bulk rise to 30%, then the aliquot jar might need to go a bit higher than 30% say 40% because it isn’t being degassed like the main dough. However, where I find it most useful, is when you’re baking the same recipe a second or more time and want to adjust the fermentation, so if the felt it was a bit overproofed last time and you ended bulk at 60%, then the next time you bake it you might back off a bit and end bulk at 50%.
I may actually have heard about it from you! I can't remember for sure though. One weird thing i've noticed is that it seems like it takes much longer for the dough in the small jar to double versus the main bowl. I cant figure it out. I'm pretty sure a couple times I've tried I've overproofed if I wait for the dough to double. I think this is when I use a stiffer dough, although I'm not sure and I dont see why it'd make a difference. It's the weirdest thing. I could swear the dough in the main bowl doubles much faster and looks ready way before the small jar has doubled. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!
Could it be that you are fermenting in a "chilly" maybe airconditioned room? The smaller amount of dough will have a tendency to be more susceptible to "Delta T" (Oh my, I like that! Can we add "DeltaT to the bread-making glossary?)
Back on topic, Many of our aliquot jar users have taken to placing the lightly oiled jar physically into the main dough ball, in order to equalize the effect of any temperature change ("DeltaT") My other thought is, could it be an optical illusion/ perception issue?
That's actually a great idea, thank you! I have been having problems with my doughs sort of splaying out once they're placed in the dutch oven and I'm wondering if its an overproofing thing or if its me not shaping things right all the sudden or maybe new flour. Well, I appreciate it!
I bulk ferment my main dough in a square Pyrex dish in which it is next to impossible to gauge percent rise so I cannot comment on whether it seems to rise faster or not.
As to your question earlier in this thread, I don’t bulk rise to a greater percent because I’m going to cold retard. I’m not aware of others doing that or not, but I don’t recall ever reading that in a recipe to bulk longer for cold retard and shorter for warm proof.
Many of the participants in the baguette community bake have been utilizing the aliquot jar to great effect. I really has allowed us to dial in on the bulk fermentation and when making adjustments from bake to bake we can keep bulk fermentation that is kept constant, or changed so we can experiment with variables and figure out how to achieve the best baguette.
Here's where I saw it! https://www.instagram.com/p/CAiiydjpcJ1/ It sort of makes sense to me but I truthfully dont know too much about this stuff. I have always wondered why, if you're going to retard in the fridge it doesnt require a second rise. So maybe that's why I was thinking that made sense when I read that post, haha. Thank you!
...where I find it most useful, is when you’re baking the same recipe a second or more time and want to adjust the fermentation...
That is so cool. I wish I had thought of it but glad I stumbled onto it! Thanks!
Murph
Better late than never Murph. Glad you find it useful, I certainly have.
The first time I saw you mention it was in one of your recent videos.
"It's Big Time Benny... of COURSE he has an 'aliquot jar'," I thought. "He's doing VIDEOS! Show-off!" :)
Haha
And then I GTS'd it (Googled That S#!t).
A divisible equal portion of the whole. Like a sixteenth of the dough. Or a thirty-second... or whatever. Nice and repeatable. Stick it in a straight-sided jelly jar and watch it rise.
Hard to judge the rise of a pile of dough on the counter... Much easier in a jar. If you like the resulting bread, rinse and repeat (or change).
Boom! Can it get any simpler and usefuler?
I hope somebody else finds this and finds it just as useful as I do (But blames Bennie for the sarcastic post!). :)
(Sorry Benny! :) Too funny!)
Murph
You’re too funny Murph.
Benny
Again, sorry, Benito. I meant no harm. The more hooch I drank the funnier it got. :)
I was just imagining a guy ordering an aliquot jar and getting a jelly jar with Fred Flintstone on it (a cartoon character) and... thinking it's the real deal. Or maybe a jar of aliquots from California (known for eccentricity).
Anyway... let's bake something other than my brain.
I love your videos. Very informative! Keep 'em coming, man! I watch 'em all!
Murph
Love your sense of humor, great to read Murph!
Benny
Alright, coming back to this with a new question: i've seen lately that when sourdough hits 50% that bulk fermentation is done. So is that for loaves that go in the fridge or loaves that need a final shaping? Because if I'm letting the dough in the jar double before shaping and then fridge then that must be too much.
How long to ferment is up to you, there is no set %. Your starter and your flour, along with the taste you want determine, well, everything. It's best to experiment with different levels of both "ferment" and proof to see what works best with your materials.
A note on fridge - remember - it takes some time for the entire mass of dough to reach that low temp. All that time it'll ferment - that could be up to a couple hrs depending on the size on the mass and initial temp.
Experiment, Experiment, Experiment - nothing is set in stone in this game. I tell the story of messing up loaf one day a few years back and the bread was so good I've been making the same mistake ever since. Who knows what ya might find - but ya gotta look before you can find anything. Enjoy!
Icantbake, phaz is so right!
I baked sourdough four years ago. Had "good" results. I stressed over every stinking detail. Got frustrated over trying to time things so they fit into an overloaded schedule. I put SD aside, figuring I just couldn't make it work.
I've come back to it just now and am starting a new starter from scratch. I've determined that I ain't going to be a slave to the darned dough.
And THAT'S THE TRUTH!
Phaz is right... experiment, fail, fix. The fridge is your friend. When you run out of time, stick 'er in there... take it out... and see what happened. Don't do that again.
It's like any other hobby. Wanna write a book? WRITE THE DARNED THING! If peeps don't like it, change up and try something else?
Wanna fly model airplanes? FLY SOME PLANES! Crash a few, make adjustments.
Here's the SD thing in a really, really nutshell... the yeast makes gas that raises dough. If they are alive and healthy, the dough rises. If they are dead or sluggish, you're manufacturing bricks.
Yeast are alive and healthy when they have some unfermented dough to eat.
Me? I'd be all about bulk fermenting to about 85% or so. This will give the yeast some food to eat while you shape and do whatever else you want to do.
Maybe stick some nuts in there... maybe keep some alive for oven spring... maybe worry... whatever. If you're good to go... get jiggy and bake!
That aliquot jar, though. Boy, that's a neat trick! I didn't think of that the last time! That'll help you with tweaking the fermentation but you have to keep the conditions the same from bake to bake in order to fix what you did the last time.
But... I don't have the experience the others do... but I ain't gonna sweat the details like I did the last time... just getting me some experience, though! Get me the "touch," the "feel," the "nose," the "look."
THAT'S THE TRUTH.
Murph
That aliquot jar, though. Boy, that's a neat trick! I didn't think of that the last time! That'll help you with tweaking the fermentation but you have to keep the conditions the same from bake to bake in order to fix what you did the last time.“