Are there any tests to determine starter's ability to make sourdough rise?
Hello friends,
I have been struggling for the last couple of months trying to figure out what is going wrong with my sourdough loaves. I have tried Hamelman and KAF's Vermont Sourdough twice, Tartine's Country Loaf about 4 or 5 times and Forkish's Overnight Country 2 or 3 times. Each one is coming out flat, dense, and inedible. I am struggling with determining whether the problem is my starter or my technique somewhere else in the process.
Here is the source of my internal debate: My starter seems to double predictably, every day, after about 8 hours. While I cannot find a direct answer to the question: "Is a starter that doubles sufficient to make a sourdough loaf rise to proper volume?" my gut says, based on related topics, that this means the starter is strong enough. Assuming that's correct, I then question my technique.
What confuses me is that I have successfully made dozens of yeasted boules from FWSY and Hamelman (as well as a few other randoms). So that then makes me think that, at least my shaping, dough strength, and dough handling is good enough to get good oven spring--which leads me back to wondering if my starter is the problem.
I clearly need to do a lot of trial and error to figure out what is going on. My current hypothesis is that I just don't know how to tell when a pure levain sourdough is over/under/properly proofed. But since that will require a lot experimentation, I wanted to try and figure out how to evaluate the starter first. The reason for that is that my starter was made with bleached bread flour--back when I didn't realize that could be a problem--so I worry that he was doomed from birth. I've just grown attached to him so I don't want to give up on him if it's not his fault.
Do you have any ideas of how to test the effectiveness of my starter? Is there a simple sandwich bread that bakes in a loaf pan with all natural starter that I can make to see if it will rise without worrying about shaping technique and spreading?
Thanks in advance for any help or guidance.
What is the feeding ratio you use for the starter?
Outside of lab testing, a lot of time, and money the rise in x amount of time is it. There's the float test, but never found that to be 100% reliable. If ya want a definitive answer - yes a starter that doubles regularly should rise bread (if the starter rises, so should the dough, it's the same stuff).
Flat dense all could be signs of different things. I wouldn't call a white starter problematic - most of mine are and no problems - as long as it's maintained properly.
Give the recipe and the timings - starter feed ratio and schedule, basically more data is needed.
Does the dough get very sticky at some point in the process?
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Mine doubles in 3 to 4 hrs, fed 1:1:1, @75-80 F. Fed with white AP flour.
Thanks to everyone for pitching in!
I have been doing a 1:4:4 feeding every morning around 10 am. I leave it on the counter, so it does get sunlight, but not too hot. I feed 50/50 bread flour and whole wheat. I was using 80 degree water for the first couple of months but have switched to room temperature water because I leave my water in a Brita pitcher on the counter because my Township uses chlorine in the water. (There hasn't been too much of a difference in rise time since the change to room temperature water, which is usually around 70 degrees). The starter was built using the FWSY method. My kitchen is about 69 degrees overnight and gets to 72 during the day. I do have a small kitchen and do leave my starter on the counter when I use the oven, so there can be temperature spikes into the 80s for an hour or so when the oven or stove is blasting. When I do my actual bakes, I don't use the stove or oven, so the temperature stays pretty stable.
I am struggling to attach pictures with my phone. As soon as I can get to my computer, I will attach pictures.
Let me know if these are good enough... If not, I'll try to upload full size photos. The one image of the starter got rotated. The right side of the image is the bottom of the jar, with the yellow tab (far right of the image) being where it started after feeding.
(as an aside, that crater at the bottom of the loaf happened the two most recent times. Never happened in any bread, natural or commercial, before. I have to imagine I did something in my final shaping to try and trap the little gas I had.)
Starter looks good, and is probably the problem, the problem being it's too good for the times you're using and everything gets over fermented and/or proofed, maybe. Are ya watching the dough or the clock?
I definitely don't just go by the recipe timing. I watch the clock and try to keep the temperatures accurate according to the formulas to get in the ballpark but I am trying to only advance to the next stage when (I think) the dough is telling me it's ready. I've never really felt like I overproofed. If anything, I usually worry I'm underproofing. I say this because the yeasted loaves I make always feel lighter and springier after bulk and before going into the banneton. The sourdough loaves always look small after bulk and after proofing in the banneton. That's probably why I started to question my starter, because the comparison between the natural leavened sourdough and the yeasted Boules look and feel very different to me. Should I not be comparing the two types of dough? And, do you have any tips for knowing when the bulk is done?
Way over is similar to way under - flat dense etc.
When is it done - it's done whenever you want it to be done. I just mentioned this to another poster recently - different levels will give different results - different tastes, different textures, you have to find that sweet spot for your taste. Experiment with different levels, see how it looks, and most important, see how it tastes. There is a spot in there with your name on it, just gotta find it. Enjoy!
if you've already fed it, add up to about a heaping tablespoon of flour to thicken it up just a bit so it is more like a soft dough. Then let it rise until it peaks, no just doubles. See how long it takes.
If you have not fed it today, then feed it wth less water. ( 1: 3:4) (s: w: f) Thicker starters will rise better trapping more gas. If the starter is just too thin to trap gas, we will soon find out.
Save the discard, give it a stir to pop gas bubbles, note consistency (thinner or same as when fed) mark the level and just watch it to see if it rises again Lets check on the day old starter to see if it is using the food it is given.
Avoid direct standing in sunshine. Taste the starter before feeding more flour. Spit it out and note the taste.
Second, the results
will tell us more about whats going on with the starter.
I followed your instructions and mixed the 1:3:4 starter. It peaked (or was very close to it) after 10.5 hours. I needed to go to sleep and there was maybe some slight doming when I fell asleep but I do think it was just about there when I last checked it. I am giving it the same feeding again today for additional data. Let me know if I should eventually switch back to a 100% hydration feeding.
As for the discard. I was a bit confused about what you wanted me to do. I think you wanted me to use the discard from yesterday morning (so, the discard from my regular 1:4:4 feeding). Hopefully I got that right. Assuming that is what you meant, I stirred to pop the bubbles and noticed that it was thinner than it was when I first fed it the day before. It never really rose any more after this stirring. The liquid seemed to separate a bit but that was the only real activity. I tasted the discard after stirring and it was brutally sour but did have a yeasty flavor. It tasted like lemon juice and watery beer. In contrast, when I tasted this morning's discard (after using your 1:3:4 feeding) it tasted much less sour, still had a yeasty quality, but also had some raw flour taste.
As for the pictures, here are three photos of the starter at peak:
Again, the photo got rotated, so the bottom of the jar is on the right of the image. The yellow is where it started.
This is a view from underneath.
A view of the bubbles from the side.
unfortunately, Im dead on my feet but will be back in about 8 hours. This helps us a lot and Im sure others will comment before I get back to you.
I'm back. Well it looks like all the comments are on track. The starter is overfermenting and most likely the dough as well. Keep track of that sour taste as a marker. Right now it looks like the bacteria have the upper hand. When you feed the starter, taste it just after mixing it together. It should not taste sour with that amount of flour and taste only like wet flour. The starter looks like it is already on a 12 hour feeding schedule only it has to be fed every 12 hours or something has to change. Several ways to go about that. Always save a little discard starter as backup in the fridge, "just in case."
Take into consideration that by not feeding the starter every 12 hours and waiting 24 hours, the starter has exhausted the food and when it does, it starts breaking down and deteriorating from yeast population and gluten matrix goes runny. Gluten falling apart is no biggie as it is not bread dough yet but it does indicate how self distructive sourdough can be. Tasting very sour means there are plenty of bacteria and acids in it, maybe too much. In nature yeast preserve their energy and slow down when their environment is low on food or too cold to survive until the next food arrives. The problem with this is that the yeast population can drop so low as to take days to get it back up where we want to use them. So lets get the yeast population back up where it should be. You have a few choices.
1). You can keep on with the 1:4:4 feedings or 1:3:4 feedings and then feed after the starter reaches peak in about 12 hours. You might want to feed slightly more flour during the warmer hours and slighly less flour during cooler nights but more or less on a 12 ish hour feeding routine. Do this type of feeding for several days. You should see a big improvement. Then....
2) or to save flour, you can pop it into the refrigerator when it is about half way to peaking if you dont want to use it in the next few days days up to about a week or two. If you want to use it the next morning let it get closer to peak before chilling thus avoiding a second overnight feed.
3) You can also feed less starter less flour and only build up the size of the starter in steps before a bake, when making the levain. This reduces the amount of discard. I keep a small amount of starter in the fridge and dont have to feed it twice a day. Maybe twice a month. This keeps me from becoming a sourdough slave and saves a lot of precious flour. But first lets get those yeast numbers up and a decent loaf before chilling the starter.
(Letting the water stand out longer than a day is good too. When chlorine is affecting the starter, all the bubbles will be near an on top of the starter where the chlorine dissipates.). Most of your starter bubbles are in the body of the starter, good. You may not need the britta filter, just let the water stand in a wide mouth pitcher with a cloth over it. The minerals in the water are food too.
The best way to increase yeast is to increase the amount of flour food. It takes a little patience to wait out the time it takes to start rising (give it a little stir if flat, if you are nearby) but think your starter can handle it. You can go for a one to ten feeding using 10g of starter but would suggest doing it only once and not too many times in a row. (And i dont think you will see rising in the first 4-6 hours so either set an alarm clock to feed early or feed big time before going to bed and then watch it during the day. Have your bread dough recipe handy if you make enough starter nad have plenty of head room in the jar, 10x) Remember to go back to your routine feeding when the starter peaks and starts to fall. This way the starter bacteria can catch up and protect the culture before the next feeding. (Feeding introduces a lot of other bacteria with the flour.) note: if feeding AP flour, and the hours drag on, the gluten matrix may give out before the yeast population reaches the desired volume amount so taste the starter for sourness. If the starter tastes like wet flour, give it more time to ferment.
Good Luck!
tip: Instead of sticky notes (which can fall off) try tape running up the jar marking the bottom of the jar, starter level, time etc. Write on it and transfer the tape directly to your writen notebook later on. My kitchen freezer permanent (ha!) marker also does a good job and scrubs off later for a photo journal.
First, let me thank you for all of the time you put into your post. It was really helpful and interesting and very much appreciated!!!
I have been doing twice daily feedings now for almost a week and I have some questions about the results and my timing/feeding amounts.
I was doing my standard 1:4:4 feeding with 10 g starter but now trying to do it twice in a day. Now that I am more carefully tracking (as opposed to before when I was more casual about noticing peak time) it seems like my starter is not actually peaking by 12 hours. I say this because, with a 1:4:4 feeding, it was not doubling and it did not have that dip in the center that I have read to look for to indicate falling (and it definitely did not have the streaks running down the side of the jar, though I find that hard to get with a small feeding like this). So, I guess my question is two-fold: 1) What are your signs for knowing when the starter has peaked and needs a re-feed; and, 2) What happens if I re-feed before peak? (ie: It's 11:30 pm and I need sleep! lol).
In the last couple of days, I switched the water--from Brita to tap water sitting out with a cover--and I gave it a 1:3:4 feeding to see how the bubbles were doing like you suggested the last time. The starter did double but I don't know if that means the starter is healthy and yeasty or if it just looks better since the starter is thicker (or both).
I am attaching some photos to see if you have any thoughts on how this poor fella is doing. I would like to try a bake soon but don't want to waste the supplies if you don't think he looks capable of a good rise yet.
Well, first, a white starter at 144/12 hrs - that sounds like a lot of food.
What I would suggest is once a day feed for now - but you gotta know how much to give it. I think you mentioned making things a little easier - this may help a little.
To determine a feed ratio for the once a day feeding, we need to do as follows
1 keep the starter on the thicker side, like a very wet dough. Like if you mix with a spoon, it shouldn't just run off the spoon, we want something that'll really show a rise and bubbles, also show a change in that consistency (we want it to be noticeable).
2 Choose a convenient time to feed consistently - a consistent rise/fall requires a consistent feeding schedule (don't worry, we will work in a bit of wiggle room to be on the safe side)
3 Don't feed, just stir for now. These 3 thing come together next
To see if a feed schedule is proper (enough food to last till it gets more - and just as important, not so much food that we are diluting the starter and making it weak), we stir it and observe. 2 things may happen
1 it rises again - this means there's still food to consume and over time can weaken things and change your dough timings
2 it does nothing and/or our thick starter gets thin/thinner - this means not enough food and over time will weaken the starter, and worse, make it more acidic over time, which will cause the worst kinds of dough problems (sticky goop fun!).
The proper ratio for a period of time should have the starter rise to a max (whatever that happens to be) and fall back to the starting point - or there about - nothing has to be exact in this business. So pick a time, give it a feed to start things off, next day note rise, stir don't feed - see what happens next day. It's right when it falls by next day. Once you have the number, as a little more food just in case - although once it gets going it's pretty hard to really kill one. Enjoy!
And watch the starter more and not so much the clock. It may mean one night of prowling the kitchen checking on the starter but it pays off not to overfeed the starter, which can happen if fed too early. You also mght want to slightly raise the temperature of the starter during this phase. Then lower it again when the starter shows more growth and predictability.
"...my question is two-fold: 1) What are your signs for knowing when the starter has peaked and needs a re-feed;"
look at
(Please note that my colour vision and sense of smell are keen, more so than average.)
2) What happens if I re-feed before peak? (ie: It's 11:30 pm and I need sleep! lol)."
Use the discards into a loaf but add a teaspoon or two of instant yeast, just for now, so the flour isn't wasted. Its adds a nice flavour to regular yeasted recipes. As long as the instant yeast is a same day recipe, the discard shouldn't cause any problems.
All of the information has helped to make this a lot clearer for me. I have already started the tests to figure out how much he needs for a daily feeding. Hopefully I can start baking soon and show you some good loaves. Thanks again!!!
You are saying you feed your starter every morning at 10. That is every 24 hours. Sitting on your counter it needs to be fed every 12 hours. See if this makes a difference.
good luck Barbara
Thanks for the feedback. What happens to the starter when it goes 24 hours between feeding? I never use the starter at 24 hours but I was hoping to avoid the time and waste of two feedings per day. I have read that twice a day is better but that once a day could work. Are there fewer yeast cells in a starter that only eats once a day? Is that why two feedings is preferred? Also, if I do switch to twice a day feedings, should I expect to do that forever or until it gains more ability to make a loaf rise?
What happens to the starter after 24 hrs - 1 of 2 things
1 - nothing as you have enough food to last
2 - it starts to starve cuz you don't have enough food.
You can feed a starter as often as you like, every hour, day, week, whatever, as long as the food given will last till you can feed again. Simple really.
I was never terribly happy with my sourdough results until I went to overnight refrigerated fermemtation with my loaves. Improved the overall quality of the loaf immensely! These sources really helped me;
https://www.abeautifulplate.com/artisan-sourdough-bread-recipe/
https://youtu.be/sZP3TKWlGnA
Hi Friends,
I have been feeding my starter a steady dose of 10 g starter, 35 g water, 45 g 50/50 WW and Bread Flour. I do this every 24 hours, with the water and room temp between 69 and 71 degrees, in a dark cabinet. The starter itself is rising well, often getting close to triple in volume within about 11 hours of feeding. Interestingly, it falls from its peak but never back down to where it started. I would have thought this meant there was still food in there but when I give it a stir, as Phaz suggested, it does not rise anymore. Is that okay? The starter still smells good, it's thinner than when it started but not liquidy, so I am thinking it's neither starving nor overfed but I would love to hear your thoughts. I only have photos of the morning before a re-feed so if you want that, I can share. I can also take a picture at peak tonight and share that.
Most importantly - I got back on the horse and made another Tartine loaf. Oof. It was not good. The picture are below. Since this was the first time getting back to a sourdough with my starter on its new diet, I wanted to stick pretty close to the instructions in the Tartine book. My gut feeling is that the dough was underproofed based on how it felt when I ended the bulk (still somewhat dense, a bit wet, not very sticky though). Mostly, it just didn't feel like it had much spring or bounce to it - it didn't feel like there was much air in it. When I make commercially yeasted boules, it has that nice puffy feel, almost like flan (for lack of a better description). This felt more like a water balloon.
Can you take a look at the loaf and let me know your thoughts? If you have any questions about the process, let me know (I'm just not entirely sure yet what information to give you that would be helpful).
Thanks!!!
It has all the classical signs of being under fermented. The bulk ferment needs to be longer. But you knew that already. See? You need to trust your instincts and not follow the recipe on timings. You wouldn't be the first to have trouble with an author's rise times. Each starter can be different and influence when the bulk fermentation is long enough.
The starter that doesnt rise after being stirred sounds starved, at least with the current feeding schedule. When it first peaks, try sticking it into the fridge. Then use the starter at your leisure within 24 hours as levain with some warm liquids to bring up the dough temperature.
Thanks, Mini!
So, even after 24 hours, a stir should still get a small rise if I'm feeding it enough? And is it normal that, even after 24 hours, it still hasn't fallen a great deal? (ie, it's still more than double the start height without a stir). Before the adjustments you and Phaz had me make, it was devouring itself and falling almost down to where it began. I'm thinking, based on your earlier guidance, that I'm a bit more balanced now and my starter isn't breaking down the food in the jar as destructively as it was a month ago, but I wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.
I'll let you know how the next loaf goes with longer bulk!
Thanks again. ???
If no rise after stirring, it needs more food. The "fall" - nothing to worry about, if the starter is on the thicker side, it may not fall - well, let's just say that the fall can be different than a thin starter, especially with different flour. Flour is a major component and logic would dictate that changing it could cause major changes in, well, everything. There's most likely a few other things that'll also change down the road, just something to get used to again. Enjoy!
Me again! I tried another batch, this time switching to the Overnight Country Blonde from FWSY. I tend to find Forkish's timings and temperatures to work for my non-sourdoughs so I wanted to use this as my dough going forward.
Oddly, I think this batch might have been overproofed but I am curious to see your thoughts. I did a 45 minute autolyze followed by a 16 hour bulk. Of that time, The first two hours included two stretch and folds, and two coil folds. 12 of the hours was in room temp of approximately 66 degrees. Forkish calls for a near tripling in volume and I wasn’t very close after the 12 hours, so I put the dough in the oven with the light on for the last 4 hours of the bulk. The temperature was about 79 degrees. This, I suspect, is where I would have overproofed. The dough needed the time to get to the 3x volume but by the time it did, it get wet and very sticky. There were definite air bubbles in there but it just felt weak and stringy. Even though Forkish doesn’t call for a bench rest, I tried one since the loaves were not holding shape very well. The bench rest made it slightly tighter but not enough. I only proofed in lined bannetons for about 2 hours because I already thought they were overproofed. By the time I took them out to go into the dutch oven, the best way to describe them was like they had a skin but no insides. They flopped in my hands and had no structure or mass. Just a shell of dough. They ended up tasting better than the last batch. They were a bit sticky and dense inside but not like the underproofed loaves the last time. The crust was edible, though obviously not good.
Thoughts on whether this looks overproofed? I think the next time, I’m going to skip the oven proofing and not worry too much about the tripling in volume and just go by feel and sight. To that point, I know what my commercially yeasted boules feel like when they’re done with the bulk – should I expect the sourdough to feel the same way or are they different since one is commercial and one is wild?
Looks can be deceiving, but the comment about stringy, floppy, no structure, sure does sound over or close to it. Not the end of the world though, as you can see in the results.
Comparing the 2 (commercial vs wild), there should be a difference (not so much a cause of the difference in yeast strain but more the addition of acids - lactic mostly - produced by the lab in the starter), but the doughs should feel similar enough where if you do notice a big difference something may be up. Enjoy!
Out of curiosity, is it safe to give one last coil fold at the end of the bulk to give additional structure or is that really harmful? Forkish doesn't call for a bench rest, and even when I've added a bench rest, I've never found that to feel like it gives as much strength as a stretch and fold. I figure after a 12-15 hour bulk, a stretch and fold might release too much gas but I was thinking maybe a gentle coil fold would add additional strength? Or is that total lunacy?
Hello friends,
I've made a few more loaves, none of which were particularly successful. I've tried going on the shorter end of suggested times and the longer end, and neither way is coming out particularly well. I do think my starter has enough yeast activity but after reading some older threads, I'm wondering if I have a protease issue. It just seems like, no matter how long or short I bulk, I have thick, sticky, pudding coming out of my tub.
So, I've decided that before banging my head up against the wall and tweaking the starter and tweaking everything else, I kind of want to start over and make a new starter. To that end, can you suggest a good method to build the new starter and a feeding schedule to follow? Also, are there any particularly good books with formulas for beginner sourdough? I have Bread, Tartine, FWSY, and BBA. But if there are any others worth looking at to maybe help me build towards the more complex sourdough, I'd be happy for the recommendations.
Hope all is well with everyone!
It's out of balance. Take a little and mix with 50 times that amount in flour and 30 times water. Just stir a couple times a day - no feeding no discard just stir vigorously. It should get back to normal in a few days.
At the same time, start another. It's easy enough. Enjoy!
How long do I do that for/When do you know when it's time to go back to regular feedings?
And is 5 grams of starter enough or should there be more?
Thanks!
5g - no problem - how long, till it stops rising after stirring.
You won't see much activity at first (like first few days), just stir, as activity increases, just stir. Once it stops rising after stirring go back to normal feeding. Enjoy!
I am happy to report that this smorgasbord feeding did the trick and my original starter seems to be back on track. I made a loaf that seemed to proof much better. I do think I pushed it a bit too far in the bulk and my shaping didn't quite hold when I turned it out of the banneton but based on taste of the final product and feel of the dough after the bulk, it's much closer to where it's supposed to be. Now I just need to work on timing, strengthening, and shaping. I'll be making more later in the week so, hopefully, I will have good loaves to show off.
I am still working on the ratio I need for a once a day feeding. Currently, my starter is peaking after about 11 or 12 hours with a 10/42/45 feeding, so I am going to try to cut the starter to 5 g with the same water/flour and see if the peak time doubles.
Thanks again for all of the help!!!
The right feed is the one that will still show a little rise after x amount of time. I would still recommend a stirring after 12 hrs regardless, it'll help keep things strong. And good to see it worked out, these things are hard to really kill. Enjoy!
starting a new starter. It is much easier the second time around.