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Help needed - my breads are blowing up like balloons

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

Help needed - my breads are blowing up like balloons

Hello all! 

I’m at my wits end and could use some help! 
I’ve picked up sourdough baking some months ago and have been every other day since - I must have baked around 50 breads already. 

But apart from one lucky exception that I was never able to reproduce, all my breads refuse to develop an ear, and the scoring fuses immediately. They have good oven spring, and the crumb is usually quite nice, but I would love to produce a nice ‘ear’. 

My starter is strong, a mix of rye and white flour that I feed twice a day. The bread in the pic is a 75% hydration mostly white flour, inspired by the case studies in Trevor Wilson’s ebook (which I completely read btw), meaning I did a long autolyse and used a relative  mature starter, 5 min of Rubaud mixing, 3 S&F, 5 hours bulk rise until volume was increased 30% (it was a cold day) and straight into the fridge after shaping for overnight retarding (9 hours). Baked at 240 degrees on a baking steel with stream for first 20 min. 

But I’ve tried many different variations (also took much inspiration from Maurizio’s website): higher hydration’s, different flours, more S&F, less mixing, longer proof, shorter proof, more bulk, less bulk, younger levain, different scoring,...

... and I get more or less always the same balloon effect. 


What could be the reason??? 

Any suggestions or pointers are welcome! I’ll also add a pic of the crumb later - but I suspect it will be good!

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Try cutting down to about half or even less that size (whatever it is) maybe even a third th size.  Start small - see if you can produce an ear then work up from there ;) 

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

It’s not a big loaf - 800 gr. I tried making smaller sizes as well (splitting it in two to try two different shapings etc) but it all gave the same result... 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

One smaller load in the oven.  Not splitting in two at the same time in the oven 

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

So these are pictures of the inside - I’m happy with this, though I think the bread has more open crumb potential but it is ‘constrained’ by its own skin. 

Benito's picture
Benito

The crumb is excellent, I wonder if the top of your dough is too close to the top of the oven?  Perhaps it is crisping up too soon and thus isn’t able to fracture open and bloom.  The bottom crust in that cut shot looks much lighter than the top, suggesting that there isn’t enough heat at the bottom and too much at the top.  What rack in the oven are you baking at?  Is your oven gas or electric?  Are you using a convection setting?  Do you bake in a dutch oven or how are you generating steam?

Benny

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

I started having great ears once I started baking in a Dutch Oven. I'm not too sure about the physics of that, but my guess is that the heat dries and sets the skin too fast, before it can spring open nicely. Your crumb looks great and open, so I don't think there is any fault in your recipe and process.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I agree with Bennie and Bani, the problem is a baking one. Very astute of Bennie to notice the bottom was not browned as much as the top.

Please describe in detail your oven setup and baking method. Your loaf is browning too quickly. Once the crust browns, it hardens. And once it hardens, expansion is no longer possible.

The great news is, if you are going to have a problem, this is a fantastic problem to have. The tight ballon like loaf is an indicator of high Internal gas pressure, which if allowed to expand will produce outstanding oven spring. Without massive oven spring, ears are impossible.

I have dealt with this issue in the past. Check out this video, paying special attention to the breads with “glued down ears”.

 http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61659/ear-bloom-and-oven-spring-skin-deep-beauty

HERE  is a good example of “glued down ears”.


HTH,
Danny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Why is the crumb tighter than any other area near the score fracture? 


Can someone venture a guess?

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Not a good guess, but the gas in the dough there wasn't able to expand as well as the other areas of the dough.  Did it crisp up too quickly?  Not enough steam and too close to the heating element?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Bennie, I’m thinking just the opposite. Because of the score the crust was allowed to expand more  than other areas. That’s why the tight crumb near the score makes me wonder.

I hope someone has a definitive answer for this.

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I think gives us a good insight as to the heat entering the dough first from the bottom and side and the dense part didnt receive enough oomph fast enough.  Hence my suggestion (as dan knows) to put a little mini loaf in one at a time.  Its incredible how much physics has tondondonwith this process ! 

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

This is a different cross-section... It does not show the same compression - maybe it was a local thing... the bottom is also a bit thicker here and about as thick as the top I would say...

kendalm's picture
kendalm

That wherever in cases like this (not all and maybe not this case) but the dense zones indicate that overall heat is not sufficient to make it all the way though the loaf.  Of course other things like elasticity, taught skin, steam all matter too.  I just dont think this loaf got a real oven kick and that is really critical to the ear development.  What I'm saying is that if you take that same recipe, method etc and, heck ! quarter size it.  Bake one at quarter size.  See what happens when you dedicate all that heat to the little guy - if it blooms then we know what the main issue is ;)

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

I will do that over the weekend :) 

But if the conclusion is, like you suggest, that the heat did not make it sufficiently all the way through - what would the solution be? 

Thanks!

kendalm's picture
kendalm

It comes down to figuring out all the little ways to maximize the use of heat because your bumping up to the limits that your oven can handle.  Maybe preheating for longer to ensure your stone is ready, using less water even heating that up first.  Making sure the door is open for the shortest possible time.  Using the highest possible rack.  This stuff mostly matters for the beginning phase of the bake - the part where the spring happens.  As an example my old oven could manage about a kilo of dough.  After that it became impossible to bake a decent spung loaf.  I would heat it to 550 and get the loaves in within 10 seconds of opening the door.  With domestic ovens and bread it's important think about how to store up as much energy as possible then unleash onto the dough and totally energize it (the dough) 

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

I have a good quality electric oven, as well as a combi-steamer. 

I've tried the Dutch oven method a couple of times, and that gave better results - but I can only do small round breads and not batards in it (which is my preferred shape). 

This bread was baked on a baking steel, first 20 minutes on 240 non-convection with 'humid air' option turned on, and a small baking tray with rocks on which I pour 500 ml boiling water. The oven has four racks, and I bake it on the second lowest one (otherwise the baking tray does not fit under it). With a rise like this, there would probably be around 8 to 10 cm between the coils and the top of the bread when fully risen. 

Then 20 more minutes at 215 non-convection but with the 'dry air' option. 

I'm also inclined to think it's the baking - but on the other hand I've also tried different strategies with my combi steamer, which has a special 'professional baking' program that starts cold with a lot of steam, and also custom made strategies where I tried to mimick professional ovens - also with balloon breads as a result!

 

 

 

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Regarding 500 mls of water.  Do you think you could fit 3,000+ cups in your oven ? That's about how much volume 500 mls  occupies once converted to steam.  

Point is that 500 mls is kinda overkill and will suck precious energy.  You only really need auto 125 mls and that will provide plenty of steam (and give more energy to your loaf) 

mandaclair's picture
mandaclair

While a 30 degree angled cut at 1/4 inch using a CURVED lame is recommended to get the ear, some bakers say you need to hold the blade almost horizontally...

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

Tried all of that too... Deep cuts, more shallow cuts, more angle less angle... ! :-|

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

my guess is that your hydration is too high for your type of flour used.  the "ballooning" reminds me of ciabattas which are super wet.  if you score it, it would just fuse right back together.  with the air sacs in that area all bursted (thus showing the denser area you have there).  try taking down the hydration a bit.  when you take it out of the fridge, do you let it rest to warm up? i would score and go straight into oven. cold dough will hold the score better. and cut it deep, looks like you don't have issue with oven spring.

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

 

 

I take it out the fridge, score and put immediately in the oven. 

I can try lowering hydration for my next bake, but I would think that 75% is already not a super high hydration. I have no troubles at all handling the dough, and when shaping it, it looks and feels exactly like in the many youtube videos. 

I also don't think the score 'fuses right back together'. It stays nice and open with the cut sharp and interior clearly visible after scoring, but then it simply never 'tears open' once it starts to rise. 

I wonder too... is there such a thing as a too strong dough?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hanne_v's picture
hanne_v

Ooooh now I'm jealous :D

MikeyS's picture
MikeyS

An old thread I know, but wondering if the OP ever successfully solved this issue? I'm having the EXACT same problem!

My loaves have recently started ballooning up, with the score opening a bit but not blooming at all. crumb is nice and open. having the same problem with a variety of sourdough recipes and so tried ken forkish's overnight white as a control (to make sure it wasn't my starter) and had the same result! Same with a poolish white bread.

Very frustrating as I've been baking a few years and has relatively recently started happening and just not sure what I've changed! 

 

 

tpassin's picture
tpassin

I think the cause is too long a proofing period.  That could be because most of the yeast's food has been used up, or the protein has become a little to slack.  In turn, that could be caused by some change in the flour characteristics. I have gotten quite a few loaves like that over the years.  They are well-inflated and have that filled-in appearance in the slashed region.

Another possibility is that your method of shaping the loaves has changed a little - something you might not have noticed - and when proofed they don't have as much elasticity s they used to have.

Let's think about what will happen for a somewhat overproofed loaf.  It will start out well-inflated and soft. In the oven, the steam condenses on the exterior of the loaf, which starts to heat up but the condensed water keeps it relatifvely cool and gells it but doesn't stiffen it up much yet. Heat is being pumped in from the bottom and working its way up into the loaf.

The bread is soft and the yeast won't be adding much more gas before it gets inactivated by the heat. So there will be less new inflation that for a younger loaf.  With less inflationary forces, the bread will be slow to open and its crust will tend to be more set when it does. As the slash opens, the newly exposed surface is much cooler and softer than the rest and so the inflationary forces cause the interior to swell up and fill in the gap.

Now contrast that with a slightly underproofed loaf that will have a lot of oomph in the oven. It will also have stronger protein and be firmer.  Now the expansionary forces are larger than before and will kick in sooner.  The firmer dough will resist expanding, and the fault of the scored lines will force the loaf to crack there.  Once again the newly exposed dough will be cooler and softer than the nearby exterior.  The larger interior forces will cause a stronger opening and be more able to have the sides of the opening heave up - there's your ear forming.

Well, this is my mental picture, anyway.  It fits in with what I've noticed in my own bakes. Either way you can get good volume, but the younger loaf will tend to expand the slashes vigorously and produce a more dramatic appearance with more pronounced ears.

So proof for less time, develop the gluten strength more when you shape the loaf, try a different flour, add some yeast nutrients (like sugar or diastatic malt).  Or some combination of the above.

One of the earlier comments suggested that there was too much water used to generate the steam.  Usually I have found that this can be a good thing because it delays setting of the crust, thus allowing for more expansion.  But for a weak, overproofed loaf that might be overkill.

One more thing.  If there is a difference in the darkness of the top vs the bottom, it indicates a heat imbalance.  If the bottom is too light, then the top is cooking faster than the bottom.  So the oven temperature should be reduced.  If the bottom is darker or burned, you need to increase the temperature and reduce the bake time.

Good luck!

TomP

Precaud's picture
Precaud

If you're fermenting at room temperature, it could be as simple as a warmer room in the summer months. Things ferment faster at higher temps. My kitchen is 5-10º warmer June-September, so I don't do preferments there in the summer.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Could be.  It would lead to overproofed loaves and softer dough.  OTOH, it's less usual for people to have big summer temperature differences, at least in the US. My adobe house in New Mexico was the only one I've lived in for a long time that didn't have air conditioning.  At least the OP should know about that!