Kneading vs. SAF/SLAF/CAF/ETC.
Second post on this subject, but I've come to believe that my excessive spreading, even post-shaping and proofing, plus the lack of oven spring, are due to poor gluten development in my dough. Normally, I mix flour, water, starter, and honey. Let rest for 45-60 min, then fold in salt. Then I start bulk ferment with some stretch and folds (I've tried doing them in 15 min intervals for the first hour and then every hour, I've tried doing 4 sets at 30 in intervals). I find that when time comes to preshape, the dough is not only sticky but basically won't hold it's shape after preshape or shaping. Removing it from the bowl after the cold proof leads to a saucer-like spread and minimal spring in the oven. So...
Do I autolyse my flour, water, honey, and starter before adding salt? Do I autolyse just the flour and water, rest, then add starter and honey, rest again, and then add salt?
When I mix in the salt, do I knead/do an extensive series of some kind of folds before I start bulk fermentation? Should it still be shaggy or am I looking for some fairly cohesive dough at this point?
I have also noticed that I don't see much difference in my dough between the first set of stretch and folds to the last set, which again suggests to me that somewhere along the way I'm supposed to be developing more gluten than I am.
For what it's worth, my starter is happy and active, floats and easily rising other doughs such as challahs, cinnamon rolls, pan loafs, milk rolls, etc. However, it very rarely doubles. It rises and gets bubbly, but usually gets to just almost double in size, never higher.
TIA
The way I see it, you can coilaminate the living daylights out of your dough, but if there is more water in it than it can physically hold it's going to spread.
I appreciate the thought, but I'm working with roughly 50% hydration and whole wheat flour, so I don't believe that to be the problem. Would love to up the hydration but clearly I'm not ready.
That's weird, all ww flours I've ever used would not even hydrate completely at 50%.
Don't I know it! I literally started with a "beginner" whole wheat recipe. Directions don't call for any kneading other than folding salt in and then the sets of stretch-and-folds during bulk. Apparently the dough is supposed to go from shaggy to nicely formed in that time. My first loaf turned out ok, and has been consistently going downhill since. Beginner's luck?
I think you might be saying you have 50% of the total of flour and water, ie 500g water and 500g flour. in bread baking, that is called 100% hydration, because everything is reported a a percentage of the flour, which as a math person threw me for quite a while.
We need to know more.
What kind of whole wheat flour, how long is your bulk proof, and at what temperature are you proofing?
Is possible your gluten is under developed but is also possible your dough is overproofed and breaking down.
So I have overproofed once before, and I switched to a clear container with marked sides so I can watch the progress closely. This last time, my dough didn't quite double, it rose by about 66% when I began the preshape.
I am pretty confident it is underdeveloped gluten, what I'm trying to figure out is why. According to most directions I've read, there's very little kneading involved with sourdough. So am I just not folding enough when incorporating all ingredients, am I not adding ingredients in the proper order, is it both?
All the videos I've watched, the dough miraculously goes from shaggy to smooth and elastic with a few sets of stretch and folds. I believe I am performing them correctly, but my dough just does not transform that way. I can add in more sets, but then my dough doesn't rise as I am continuously deflating it. The only thing I can think of is developing more gluten at the very beginning, but it doesn't specifically say to do this. Clearly something is wrong though.
Now would be a good time to share the recipe and the exact details of what you are doing, i.e. room temperature (is it constant or changing) ,temperature of the water that you used, your dough temperature just before fermenting, how long each step is (mixed for X minutes, fermented for Y minutes, then folded...; total fermentation time, total proofing time).
Search on window-pane test, here's a start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6aZNO4rQWE
You could give 100 people the same recipe, but if they each vary the conditions, time, temperature, humidity at every step, there will be 100 different outcomes--especially when working with sourdoughs.
Well here’s a good question, do I perform the window pane test after autolyse but before bulk ferment/street and folds? I guess what I’m getting at is how developed should the dough be at that point? Because that’s where I think I’m going wrong, my bulk ferment and SAFs are not having the desired effect because my dough is a mess to begin with.
Everything you've mentioned depends on your recipe and conditions, too. If your dough is overfermented and or overproofed, you will lose structure, too. It is very hard to help without knowing what we're helping with.
I understand. But I’m specifically asking how developed dough should be prior to bulk ferment.
I had the same question, but without the recipe I was using, no one could help me. As it turns out, I have had two problems, forgot the salt once, and too high hydration the second. I'm trying a 73% hydration now and it's lovely. Going to keep increasing by 1% as I learn to handle it.
Oh ok, well as I mentioned above it is about 50% hydration, approximately .75 cup starter, 1.25 cups of water to 2.5-3 cups flour, 1 tbsp honey and 1.5 tsp salt added later. I add flour until the dough starts to come together, but it is quite shaggy. I assume a higher hydration dough would be even shaggier. At some point the dough needs to be worked in order for it to become smooth and elastic, or no? Do I work it for window pane before bulk ferment? Because leaving it shaggy isn’t working, it does not appear that the stretch and folds are enough.
Please tell me you are not actually measuring in cups.
Unfortunately I am still awaiting my new scale since my last one broke.
That's unfortunate. You are unlikely to be able to get consistent results until you have a scale. There are already variables we have little control over (such as humidity in the room) that change with each bake. When you are learning, it is most ideal to keep things as consistent as possible so you can identify from one loaf to the next how much you improved. And you can identify if the change(s) you make had the desired effect. Flour, in particular, is very hard to measure accurately by volume. And since it's the most important ingredient in bread, it's very difficult to make good bread when measuring by volume. But at least you have a new scale on the way.
I went to the King Arthur weight chart and translated your recipe into weights:
170-181g starter
284g water
300-360g flour
21g honey
9g salt
Your hydration is quite a bit above 50%. If I assume your starter is at 100% hydration, then your hydration is somewhere in the 83-95% range. Since I assume you are not an experienced baker who knows how to handle a dough with that high hydration, I'd guess that's the biggest part of your problem.
It's also a really high inoculation, right?
We really can't help at all without knowing the basics of your ingredients. For example, here are some kinds of whole wheat flour:
These are all 'whole wheat' flour and they will behave wildly differently in a bread dough. Some will never make a dough. Some will be insanely sticky. All will absorb different amounts of water.
You're asking specifically about gluten development, which is directly related to the type of wheat in your flour.
It's just organic whole wheat flour from the grocery store, unfortunately I can't get my hands on anything else in the meantime.
Thanks for figuring out the hydration @LittleGirlBlue
So lets say we have a beginner loaf, a 123 sourdough boule, and then a more advanced one, such as an 83% hydration boule...
What would the difference be in the steps we take to make it? For example, does one or the other or both require help in the beginning to build gluten strands? Does one have to bulk ferment longer than the other? Etc.
Thanks!