Questions related to Wink's Pineapple Juice articles
My starter is stuck, but not in the usual place. Please help me get it back on track
My starter is 9 days old today, and has appeared to be stuck in the "dead phase" since about day 3.5. I get a small amount of bubbles, but no rise. The consistency of the starter is similar to pancake batter when first fed, transitions to clumpy & sticky (what I assume is the gluten formation but I'm a beginning baker so no experience), and then transitions to liquidy. All of this has happened very predictably for roughly 6 days now. I can vary how quickly it goes through these phases based on the amount I feed, with smaller feedings (2:1:1 for example) being faster to reach the liquidy stage faster than bigger ones (1:1:1 for example).
I've split my culture and tried bigger feedings, smaller ones, less hydrated ones. They are all almost the same, with the exception that bigger feedings progress through those phases slower than smaller ones. I've been recommended to keep my starter warmer than my house's temp of 70F(21C), so I've been attempting to do so altho I don't have a great way to do that. I bundle the containers up under a blanket with a bottle of warm water and let the temp slowly drop until I refresh it again. I'd say the average temp has been about 75F(24C), but occasionally I've misjudged the warmth of the bottle and it's gotten up to 85F(29C) (that's the air just outside the culture container, so I don't think the culture itself has quite reached that high) and overnight it falls as low as 68F(20C). Altho I see small changes, nothing seems to cause any move towards more bubbles or rise. I've read that sourdough starters are surprisingly resilient, and I'd have to agree that mine seems quite determined to stay exactly in this apparent balance it has reached. But it's the wrong balance!!
And this is the source of my frustration. If I knew I was making progress towards the goal, I could happily wait it out. But every single sign I see indicates there is no progress.
In Debra Wink's pineapple juice solution articles, she mentions that her "starters sort of liquefy the day before yeast starts to grow." My least fed version of my starter (2:1:1 1x/day) has been liquefied for at least 3 days (when I started keeping notes on that detail) and I think 1 or 2 days before that. It has not progressed to the yeast phase despite the fact that to follow the pattern, it should have done so several days ago.
Debra Wink did us all a huge favor figuring out the science behind the apparent dying off and dead phase many people see in their starters around day 2 or 3. And now people know to just wait it out and soon enough it'll progress to the next phase. Yeast will move in and bubbles will reappear. But that's not happening for me.
In her description, she says Phase 2 is where you are likely to get stuck: "There probably won't be much gluten degradation, and it may smell a little different, but it shouldn't smell particularly foul unless started with plain water. This phase can last one to three days or more. If it is going to get hung up anywhere, this is the place it usually happens, especially if it is put on a white flour diet too soon." But that's not where I am. And I am using 50/50 WW/unbleached AP flour, so the white flour diet is not an issue.
Phase 3 she described like this: "The starter will become very tart---an indication of more acid production by more acid-tolerant bacteria. The gluten may disappear and tiny bubbles become more noticeable. These are signs that heterofermentative lactobacilli have picked up the baton. Once a starter becomes really sour, it usually transitions right into phase four." This is clearly where I am. My starter is definitely very tart and has been for days. Gluten has been predictably disappearing for days. There are tiny bubbles, but very few. They are not becoming more noticeable.
In her article she talks about the need to activate the yeast that is in the flour. She speculates this is tied to pH, but is unsure if this is actually the activating mechanism. That article is quite a few years old. Do we have any more definitive science on the answer to this question? Because it sounds to me like that's where I'm stuck.
So I'm really at a loss for what to do next. I've tried feeding less often, in smaller ratios, in bigger ratios, with less hydration. The only thing I can think of that I haven't tried is making a very high hydration culture and seeing if that does anything.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
I don't have any guaranteed answers, but maybe a few ideas.
I know that warm-ish room temperature is recommended, but the two best starters I have ever started (including the new one I started a month ago, which got into phase 4 in only 4 or 5 days) were started in the winter with kitchen temperatures in the mid-60s. So, I wouldn't worry about the water bottle. (I have a theory about enzyme vs. yeast/bacteria activity at varying temperatures, but it is just a theory to explain seasonal variations I observe in own kitchen.)
It sounds like you may be underfeeding - even in a cool kitchen, I fed 1:1:1 every day after day 3. When the weather changed, that turned into 1:1:1 twice a day. Have you tried feeding a bit more than 1:1:1 daily?
I would feed with all whole wheat flour until it is more active, unless you have a supply issue and you are trying to stretch a bag.
I guess I can go back to just room temp. I certainly didn't suddenly resolve the issue when I started the warm bottle thing a few days ago. I've seen a few places where people state the lacto bacteria will outcompete the yeasts at higher temperatures, but others state a higher temp is best for getting a starter going. That's why I tried to go a bit warmer but not too much. So confusing.
I tried a 1:2:2 and a 1:4:4 to see if a bigger feeding would wake it up. Those 2 cultures looked 100% dead for most of the first 24 hours so I just let them sit for another day and on the 2nd day then gave about the same very weak bubbling I'm seeing in everything else. So didn't feel like it helped. I have not tried doing smaller feedings more frequently to add up to as much as something like 1:2:2 or even 1:4:4 spread over 24 hours, and it might be worth a try. I tried lower hydration but not higher hydration so that's also on my "try next" list. I'm running out of containers though! Currently I have 5 separate cultures going (plus all the discard in the fridge that I am unwilling to discard just yet, cuz who knows maybe it will be the answer).
I just bought the bag of WW flour so it'll last a while. I couldn't find rye or I'd have gotten that but there was at least both the WW and unbleached AP in stock. So I guess 100% WW is also worth a try.
Ty so much for your thoughts! If you want to share your enzyme theory I'd be glad to hear it! PM me if you would rather not do so publicly.
I’ve created starters from scratch several times. Every time successful. All I’ve ever used is rye flour, as fresh as it’s possible to get, and all purpose flour. No juice or grapes or tricks with temperature. Room temperature is fine.
So if I were to try to step in and fix yours for you, I’d go with what I know: feed once a day with equal masses of rye flour and water (boiled and cooled tap water) until I see activity of some sort. Then feed morning and night, optionally transitioning to all purpose flour. The ratio I feed is 1 part starter, 1/2 part new flour, 1/2 part water.
Starting from zero, you could bake with it within a couple weeks. But yours should take less time to get to that point.
Unfortunately I have been able to find rye flour. :(
Oh, yes. That would be a problem. Sorry. I’ve read that whole wheat flour is a decent second best. I’ve also seen/heard that red grape skins are a rich source of the organisms we’re after. I’ve never tried it.
Good luck. I hope it comes around for you.
Thanks! I do appreciate your response. I've been using 50/50 WW/unbleached AP and will try switching to 100% WW to see if that helps.
Not sure about the grapes. I've read both that you can get yeast from grape skins and that the yeast on grape skins & apple skins, etc, is a different species. Not sure which is true, but since there should be enough in the WW flour I think the more likely issue is that whatever conditions & other species exist in my starter, it is somehow not hospitable to the yeast so they aren't taking off like they should. Debra Wink's articles discuss needing to "activate" the yeasts from their dormant state, so that might be the hump I need to get over, moreso than needing to introduce them. They've got to be there. It should only take a very small amount of them as they should take off & multiply quite quickly if the conditions are right.
I'll just keep feeding & fiddling. Almost every day I take some of what would have been discard and try something new, meanwhile maintaining 2 cultures that I keep consistent with one at 1:1:1 and one at 2:1:1. One of these has got to work eventually!
Have you tried the Nextdoor app? It seems like home sourdough is a big thing these days, and there may be someone near you who has a mature starter going. It would only take a small amount from them to launch yours.
I bet lots of people in this backwards town bake sourdough & other things. and did even before the virus. But I bet none of them use any apps. lol.
I might give it a try. But I'm stubborn and really want to make my own! I originally had the idea a couple weeks ago cuz I was afraid of being unable to find yeast that I needed for a recipe for my daughter's bday. I found sourdough versions of the recipe and thought that sounded great. And I've been wanting to play around with sourdough for many years, just haven't found the time. Well. Her bday is on Saturday. I stirred together flour & water 12 days before that, the day I had the idea. I read all these articles online about how you'll be ready to bake bread in 5-7 days. I thought I had plenty of time. Well. The yeasts had a different idea and I don't think we're having that recipe for my daughter's bday. lol. But I'm still happy it gave me the push I needed to get started on sourdough. I'll make it for her....soon...ish. Whenever Blob cooperates. :)
I got some advice from Debra Wink via PM, and I'll tell you, that lady is a genius, and also very kind. She advised I keep the starter at room temp instead of using the warm water bottle to keep the temps a bit higher. She also advised I skip 1 day of feeding, and try going to 100% ww flour instead of the 50/50 ww/ap mix I had been using.
At that point, I was running 5 different batches, experimenting with different ratios of feeding & hydration to try to find something that worked. Within 1 day of lowering the temps, one of those 5 took off with lots of bubbles. I had not even fed it yet, since I was in the "skip a feeding" window, so I can say for sure the 50/50 ww/ap flour worked just fine for that one.
A few hours after the feeding I gave at the end of the "skip a feeding" window, another culture took off. This may be related to the skipped feeding, but I'm kinda of inclined to say no. One took off while it was relatively starving, near the end of the skip a feeding window, and the other took off as soon as it was fed again.
So, the only other change that's left is returning to a lower temperature. Or who knows, maybe it was just gonna happen then, which was day 10, regardless of what I did.
In any event, I am thinking I'm probably out of the woods, altho slightly afraid that if I do anything slightly wrong it'll backtrack again.
So excited to make something with it!
Once again, ty to all who offered advice.
So happy for you and hope I can resolve as you did. It's so disappointing to think you're making progress and doing this "simple" science experiment right only to be defeated. I hope to get resolution to my issue and maybe it is just a "skip a feeding" day.
So, how long did you go between feedings when you skipped?? 24 or 48 ours??
I went one 48 hr period without feeding. Other than that, I think all of my feedings were 24 hrs apart until after the yeast showed up and I switched to 12hr feedings. Then I had 1 bump in the road where everything slowed down, which I believe was caused by me getting a bit over excited and feeding a bit too much too fast once the yeast showed up. I skipped 1 feeding and that seemed to get things mostly back on track. So that time was 24hrs without feeding since by then I was feeding 2x/day.
WAS DOING GREAT! Until it wasn't...not rising anymore AFTER 2 WEEKS!!!
I am 14 days into my starter and all was going GREAT....until yesterday! It took 2 weeks but my starter passed the float test and I thought I was ready to make bread. I gave it one last feeding and something happened. I have no idea what I did any different.
I'm using a 1:1:1 ratio (4 oz each starter, water, flour).
All has been rising and "falling" and I wait until it's hungry to feed (about every 12 hours when I see the "legs")
It exploded and floated - YAY!!
Then yesterday, disaster. I fed in the a.m., checked it after a few hours and it was going very slow. Then at 8 hours barely doubled.
WHAT THE HECK DID I DO WRONG??? If I'm understanding things right, I had a healthy colony in there and then suddenly something has stunted the growth of my good enzymes and bacteria.
BUT WHY??? I'm so terribly disappointed and a bit defeated after 2 weeks of this and almost there :-(
Thank you! L.
I replied on your thread.
I can understand the disappointment.
But just keep going. When the starter is mature enough you can start feeding it higher ratio’s like 1:2:2 until 1:5:5 and it get’s stronger and stronger and you can bake lovely bread with it for years to come.
I found Debra Wink's 'pineapple solution' starter on Breadtopia. 3 attempts have utterly failed, no sign of life. I've never made a dough starter before, but am a homebrewer and have successfully made big starters to pitch from commercial strains.
Before giving up, I decided to try the sourdough starter on the King Arthur site. Started with the same fresh whole wheat flour I had milled for the pineapple solution, and this time used water instead. Day 2 was a 113g discard and 50/50 unbleached all purpose flour and water feeding. I'm at 40 hour mark and have nice bubbling on surface. Wondering if Dole canned pineapple juice produced unfavorable low pH, or if I got a better inoculation of yeast from the all-purpose flour. The addition of all-purpose flour and the discard were the only variables compared to the pineapple failed experiments.
was when the pineapple juice in question contained preservatives. It was a bottled variety and I had not noticed the very small print that announced the presence of preservatives in the juice. Other attempts with preservative-free juice worked fine.
Not sure what the temperatures or elapsed time were for the failed attempts you mention, since there's nothing said about them in your account. Temperature is a big deal for wild yeast. If temperatures are warm enough for tee shirts and shorts, the yeast will grow happily. If cooler, say below 70F, they will grow but s-l-o-w-l-y.
With regard to your WW/AP attempt: the early flush of growth you are seeing is all bacterial, not yeast. It's the first stage of starter growth and usually quite frothy and often stinky. The next stage is when everything goes quiet; no bubbling at all. Don't feed or discard the starter during this stage. You can stir it a couple of times each day if you feel you need to do something but it's really just a waiting game. The third stage is when the pH drops low enough to wake up the yeast. You'll see bubbles begin again as the yeast population increases in the starter. Note that the AP flour carries fewer yeast cells than a whole-grain flour. It will work, but it doesn't bring as much to the party as whole-grain flours do.
The pineapple juice takes you directly to stage three by acidifying the starter without going through stages one and two. The yeast will grow, if temperatures are favorable (and no preservatives are present).
Paul
Thanks Paul. To answer your questions, I used Dole canned pineapple juice, no additions other than some vitamins, I included a photo of what I used. Elapsed time was 6 days on first attempt (chucked it), and then 10 days on 2nd attempt, and about 6 days on 3rd attempt. Temps were maintained in 70's in oven with stone on rack, and only oven light for warmth periodically. I used my Thermoworks ThermaQ probe to monitor temps.
On day 3 of my King Arthur method (AP flour and well water), I began seeing bubbling, and did a discard and feed. For fun, I also took my latest pineapple and whole wheat experiment and fed with AP flour and water. The next day, both were bubbling on surface, and had a slightly sour odor, like sour cream. Not yeasty smelling yet. My oldest WW flour and pineapple starter never did anything, I tossed it.
Tried to upload pics, said they exceeded 2 mb and wouldn't upload. I'm new to forum don't know how to downsize the pics.
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As long as the starter shows activity, feed it regularly. If it goes flat, let it be until it shows activity again. The quiescent phase can run for 1-3 days, sometimes longer. So, wait for it to start bubbling again instead of throwing it out. Then you'll know for certain that it is yeast at work.
The sour cream odor is encouraging. It suggests that lactobacillus and related organisms may be at work, rather than the leuconostoc bacteria that cause the initial froth and stinkiness.
It is possible that the starter has somehow managed to go through phases one and two very rapidly, or maybe even skip them altogether, though it would be the first I've heard of to do that.
So long as it bubbles consistently after feeding, keep up with your routine. It should be ready for a test bake by next weekend, if indeed the yeast are at work.
Paul
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