My lievito madre is acting up - help please!
Hello fellow bakers!
Since November I've been diving into the world of lievito madre and panettone. I started it using apple yeast water, then I made a liquid starter, then I converted it into a stiff starter.
I was using about 35-37% hydration with Manitoba flour from Molino Caputo, everything was going great, I even made my first 100% natural yeast panettone. Well... I ran out of flour and I ordered more from brick oven baker, however, this time they had flour from Molino Grassi. And that's when my nightmare started!
This flour is different, I'd say it absorbs more water. So in the beginning, I started to add a bit more water on the refreshments. I was working on the 38-40% hydration, otherwise, the dough was impossible to work with.
Result? I think I created a bacterial/yeast imbalance. When I did the bagnetto before the maintenance refreshment, the LM would float right away (well squeezed, no air inside). After a few weeks, I managed to strengthen it a bit, but I tried to make challah with it and it wasn't strong enough. I can only make regular loaves with the discards.
Well, I started to let the lievito madre rest right after I incorporated the flour so it'd be easier to roll it and refine the dough. That way I could go down to the original 35-37% hydration, and I thought I could restore whatever was going on with it. But yesterday the lievito madre took about 40 minutes to float when doing the bagnetto. From what I read, that's a sign of too strong/too acidic lievito madre?
I think there are some problems with the acidity or something in there... I tried again to make an enriched dough and I can feel the LM took forever to ferment the dough and that obviously affected the gluten network (still not sure if the acidity imbalance could also be the cause of the weakening of the gluten network).
Does anyone have any experience with this? I want to make panettone again and keep practicing, but until I'm sure this thing is at its 100% I don't want to waste ingredients lol
Also... does anyone know a good book/resource that's in English? I don't speak Italian and google can help so much lol, sometimes I feel like I'm not getting the exact words lol
Thank you so much!
A desperate baker ;)
What is your typical maintenance routine, times and temps?
Thank you for your response!
I use the water technique. Lately, I've been doing 2 refreshments on the weekends and then kept it in the fridge for 5-6 days. This is what I do (I followed some videos on youtube from a guy in Spain that knows about panettone, but I think he took the videos down):
I take the PM out of the fridge and leave it on the counter for 24h to acclimate (Room temperature 68F)
Then the next day I do a 30 mins bagnetto (bc these are the maintenance refreshments, so I do 1 bagnetto per maintenance refreshment) with 2g sugar/liter of water and water temperature 38C.
The refreshment then goes like this: 100g PM, 100g Manitoba flour and 35-38% water at 30 Celsius. Then cover it with water at room temperature and I leave it on the counter at 68F for 24h.
After 24h I do another refreshment, the same thing, cover it with water and put it in the fridge directly. I cover it with a ziplock bag but I don't close it, it's just as a precaution in case something falls inside.
Following those videos I mentioned, the guy explained that if the dough floats right aways when you put it int he bagnetto, the PM is weak. That's what happened to me several times as I was using up to 40% of the new flour. So I tried my best to reduce the water to 35% which, in my opinion, is too dry. This last weekend I did the bagnetto and it took 40 mins to float, and according to those videos, that's because the PM is too strong/ acidic (This happened when I used 35% water). So then I saw on bake-street.com that I could do a refreshment using twice as much flour as PM. That's what I did yesterday. Today, 24h later, I proceeded to a 1:1 refreshment using 38% water
I'm a bit lost, seems as everyone has different opinions about which temperature to use to do the refreshments, how much water... I'm more concerned about the water % because I think it can promote the growth of different bacteria/yeast and create some imbalance. And that's when I noticed the changes in my PM.
Just as I feared. You made no mention of what is actually a "refreshment". You are effectively stuck in conservation mode.
A refreshment by definition is not simply a feeding but specifically a rebuild at 27/28C for no more than 4 hours. That is the definition of LM.
Fridge temperatures are where dormancy occurs (yeast go to sleep). In the days before making panettone the LM should see no fridge time. In fact Massari says to feed 3 times a day (28C) followed by 12hrs at night (bound, 18-20C) and repeated for three days before prepping for Grandi lievitati.
From what you say... basically I've been trying to work with asleep yeasts, I'm afraid.
So if I want to use the PM in panettone or other enriched dough what I should do is those 3 refreshments at 28C for 3 days?? I have heard doing those for 2 days. The first 3 to get the PM stronger, and then 3 more before making panettone. I understand that by feeding the PM that often you strengthen it? Also, when and how would you do the bagnetto during those 3 days of consecutive refreshments? I never know what's the best sugar amount and water temperature for the bath.
I have read somewhere that you can actually feed your PM (or sourdough for that matter) too much, and it can, in fact, weaken the PM. What are your thoughts about this? I haven't been feeding the PM too much because I was afraid of this.
By the way... what's the proper terminology for maintenance refreshments (feedings?) vs refreshments before baking?
Thank you so so much for your response and I'm sorry for so many questions, this thing is very intriguing and exciting!
It is very important that the LM triples in volume during the 4hr refresh @ 28c.
Tell me the result of that and come back to me..
thank you for your advice! I don't have time during the week to work on it every 4h, so for now, I'll keep feeding it every 24h at room temperature and try the 3 refreshments over the weekend. I'll let you know then!
Thanks a lot!
To be clear I am simply recommending you make one refresh at 28C initially, lasting strictly no more than 4 hours (no matter what it does) before going back into your conservation feeds.
Please understand that feeding 1:1 every 24hrs continuously is no way to keep the LM. Seems many Instagram'ers have fallen foul of this erroneous interpretation.
Subtract the 4 hours out of your 24. ie. 20 + 4 + 20 + 4... Where 20 hrs is done at 15-18C and 4 hrs is at 28C.
Okay, I misunderstood what you said. Thanks for the clarification.
Just to make sure I do it well, what temperature should I use for the feeding and water bath? ( I'm using 30C for the water I add to the dough and the water for the bath is around 21C).
Correct me if I'm wrong, I keep it 4h at 28C and then another 20 at room temperature conditions? And I need to see if it tripled during this time?
Thank you so much again for your help! I'm really interested in learning the proper way of working with LM and understand the methodology :)
Using 30C water in the dough is counter intuitive when the goal is to slow fermentation during the storage / conservation phase. Room temp? You need to regulate the temperature so that it doesn't exceed 18C.
Water for the bath shouldn't exceed 20C.
Indeed, please tell me if the dough triples during the 4hr refreshment...
I don't think it tripled, but if it helps, 5 minutes after putting it at room temperature (5 minutes after the second pictures) almost 1 cm was out of the water. The LM and the flour were at around 21-22C, I fed it using water at 12C and kept it in the oven (off) with the light on and 1 cup of hot water for 4h (it's the only way I have to keep the temperature at 28. But most likely the temperature dropped to 27 the last hour. The bulb in my oven is not super strong.
How should I proceed now?
Conservation mode occurs at cool temps (15-18C) with maturation in water or bound in cloth lasting typically 12hrs, 24 max.
Refreshments, like I said are limited to 4 hrs at 28C. They are not done in water (with the exception of Morandin's method) and are limited to 4hrs that means you feed again after that.
You clearly lack knowledge of the basics.
Sorry if my reply was a little curt before. But you lead me to believe you had prior knowledge of how to maintain an Italian type starter when clearly you do not.
I'll do my best to make it clear now:
You should think of LM as a starter that is maintained first and foremost at its optimum temperature of 27/28C. It is made at 50% hydration (sometimes lower) and fed 1:1 (starter:flour) every 4 hours. This is where the LM becomes mature and it could be kept that way indefinitely.
Conservation methods are there to keep the LM viable and in good health on a day to day basis. This occurs at 15-18C. This phase should last 12 hours normally but it can be extended to an absolute maximum of 20-24hrs. During this phase the dough can be kept in water or bound in cloth. Both methods help prevent souring of LM but in very different ways.
The conservation phase should always be followed with at least one refreshment at 28C lasting 4 hours as above And a washing "lavaggio" can be done after the conservation (storage) phase, before the refreshment.
Thank you for clarifying that. I think I have a better picture of the conservation of LM.
I am very new to LM. I watched some videos on youtube from someone who is now an expert on panettone making in Spain, and I also follow a Spanish blogger that's starting up with this too. I'd love to know more about all this, but, unfortunately, the scarce information out there is very conflictive (from the methodology to even the jargon used), and the books that could shed some light are out of my budget as of now. Also, most of the information is either focused on building the LM or preparing it to make panettone. As far as the conservation there's very very little information and, as I mentioned, very conflictive.
As a researcher, the only way I know of learning is by experimenting (There is very little literature about LM as well). I know I've made mistakes, and that's how I ended up here. If you know some resources, I'll be more than happy to take your advice, because I really want to learn.
Once again, thank you for your explanations and for taking the time.
There is alot of different information out there. So I have been following your journey. I appreciate you sharing your experience.
This site has been helpful to me. I had a crazy thought that this was your site.
https://allyoukneadisbread.com/how-to-to-create-lievito-madre-for-panettone/
Please understand there is no one way. Each Maestro has their own method of maintenance. Times, temperatures and storage methods vary slightly but underlying principles are essentially the same. Firm white dough with strong leavening capacity and low acidity (TTA).
I think you simply need to stick with one authoritative published author.
I like Giorilli's methods and would recommend him for beginners.
I have the Italian publication of this book but I believe this one is in Spanish: https://www.amazon.es/fermentaci%C3%B3n-lenta-Gribaudo-Piergiorgio-Giorilli/dp/8417127062/
It looks like a good place to start. Thanks for the recommendations, everyone! Hopefully one day I'll understand all this better!
Hey Michael,
can you tell us how to correctly start a lievito madre from scratch?
There are a lot of instructions on the internet but i always have the same problem.
After a few refreshments of the starter, everything is getting sour and the gluten is beginning to break down and i end up with a soup.
There are instructions on the internet to feed the new starter every 48H or 24H at 28C for about 15 days this is very long and very warm in my opinion and can only lead to a starter with a low PH and therefor runny texture.
Please tell us how to correctly start a lievito madre from scratch
Best regards,
Michael