American oven! (gonna mess up my mind.. i think)
Fellow bakers, I am in dire need of your wisdom (dear moderators, if this post is in the wrong forum - please move it)
The gist: I produce good bread at home in Sweden but here in the U.S. I rather seem to be producing american footballs. I think it is the oven that give me trouble, it vents too quick so no chance to keep the steam. I am thinking about covering the vent - any experiences out there anyone want to share? Or could it be me making the assumption that the 1/4" standard Baking Steele should do deliver enough heat to a couple of loaves - when it doesn't? Or is there something else missing in the equation.
Long version follows: I moved to DC from Sweden (due to the missus new job), cultured a starter and bought a Baking Steel right away. Not only due to the depressing bread situation in the US capital but most because I bake myself, have so been doing for years and enjoy both the handicraft as well as the outcome (unfortunately no income, only input)
So, I bought a selection of bread flours (King Arthur, Gold medal something, and whatever I found at the local Safe Way) and while the starter got stronger and developed the right characteristics I perfected pizza (make 96h pizza dough, set the oven for pyrolytic - and Bobs Artisan is your uncle!). And then it was time - for bread.
After I had been crying for a couple of weeks when exploring the bread counters in the neighborhood (either due to lack of quality, crazy prizes, or both - DC, remember) I started off with my standard, go to, basic, run of the mill, 70% hydrated - loaf.
1 kg (~2.2 lbs) of bread flour (BRM Artisan tasted and behaved OK in the try outs), 700g (~1.5 lbs) filtered water (DC...), 200g (~.44 lbs) alive and kickin' levain/sponge/starter whatever you want to call it, 22g (~.77 ounce) salt. Straight forward as you can see, dough come out as expected, ~3h proofing, ~8h fridge, on the pizza shovel, score, onto baking steel that had been preheated 1h 550f. So far so good.
First mistake. Do it like a Swede - half a cup of boiling-ish water on the bottom of the oven for steam. And two drops on the American glass and, well, the glass became kind of crumbly... Bread came out a disaster to no surprise of anyone.
A few days later - a new glass in place and homework done (Thank you TFL). Lava rocks in oven pan, preheated from t-1h. Dough on steel, water on rocks and sauna is a fact - lava rocks are a great invention! Wait for oven spring, not 10 minutes like at home, by 15 something start to happen, by 20 the loaves have turned into american foot balls, oven is vented with no trace of sauna (!) and set for 440f and another 25 mins. Edible but far from what it should be.
This is the story more or less, time and time again. I try to avoid blaming the gear so I experimented with different levels of hydration (up to 75%), upped the hot water to ~1-1/4 cup (3dl), tweaked temperatures, found out about the towel trick to accompany the sauna steamer for continuous steam, but alas - I find myself at a loss.
Back home I have a standard oven, a 3/4" hefty ceramic slab (cordierite, proper kit) and a cup for the water. Out of the oven comes beautiful, blistered, tanned loaves with ears, crispy crust that crackles during cool down and an open, shiny crumb. I am not tooting my own horn, after a few years of mistakes bread comes out that way and that is what I want. But here? Nope.
I do not think the baking steel is the problem, it is a standard 1/4" at 15 lbs, should pack all the punch that is needed (right?) The crust on the underside became quite tough in the beginning but I learnt about semolina (another great invention!) and then that problem was solved.
I have understood that ovens 'over here' tend to be vented much more than back home, any steam is vented out too quick. I think this might be the problem as it takes so long for oven spring to kick in, and when it happens the scoring is no good as the surface of the dough has dried/the crust has formed. I think this might be the culprit and I intend to cover the vent with some aluminium foil but want to ask someone here first so I not do any more stoopid assumptions based on knowledge of Swedish ovens (yes, the glass and the water par example..)
So, here I am at a loss, and asking for your help, because I have run out of ideas.
I have never been to Sweden, so don't know anything about their ovens, though gas ovens in the US are usually very well ventilated, more than many of us bakers would prefer. I hate to say throw money at the problem, even though I do that every chance I get, but have you tried cooking in a combo cooker https://smile.amazon.com/Lodge-Cooker-Pre-seasoned-Skillet-Convertible/dp/B0009JKG9M/ref=sr_1_4?ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0047-win10-other-smile-us000-gatwy-feature-SEARC&keywords=combo+cooker&qid=1574473931&sr=8-4 or a dutch oven. That more or less eliminates the venting of the oven issues. The combo cooker is preferred because you can use the flat side down, and it is much easier to load dough, than trying to ease it into a regular dutch oven. The other thing is that you won't get a football - though you may get something like a rugby ball, because batards don't fit combo cookers.
A dutch oven would provide us with a reference environment where humidity is secured and levels reasonably reproducible, that would quickly give robust data pointing out to us if steam is the issue. You are quite the genius, barryvabeach.
I have not been doing the dutch oven dance before as things have been going fine with a ceramic slab and a splash of water. Now, I have secured a standard enameled Le Crueset (oval shaped - vive le bâtard!) so I will try it out this coming week. Do my homework here on TFS, make some mistakes in the kitchen and hopefully come up with results to compare to my earlier experiences.
However, the oven is electric, sorry I didn't write that. The picture of the vent in the initial post shows a coil but I should have been more clear about it. Still there is the vent and I am thinking about covering it, not fully but still, to up the steam level - are there any experiences of that approach to the steam issue out there?
Anyhow, thanks for your input. The obvious to everyone but me =)
What do you mean by "filtered water"? Is it tap water run through a faucet-filter, a stand alone filter (like a filter-pitcher) or a house-installed filter? Are you buying "filtered water" in a store?
Sometimes, buying "filtered water" is a sham, and it's not filtering out the chlorine.
If your house has "softened water" and you filter it, it still might not filter out the water-softened (or de-ionized) minerals.
I would suggest:
1. try "bottled spring water", about $3 to $4.50 per case of 24 1/2 liter bottles, at the discount store or grocery store.
2. Baking steels transfer heat differently than baking stones, they are not identical. They absorb and transmit the radiant heat from the bottom heating element much more than a stone. So try a cheap pizza stone, about $10 to $15. if you don't want to try a stone, then at least "shade" the baking steel from the bottom element, if it is not already totally shaded by the water pan.
3. Also, at 550 F, you may be baking the crust too hard too quickly, preventing expansion/oven-spring. Back that down to 450, especially for a loaf of white flour. Actually, if you can remember, it's better to pre-heat at 25 F higher than desired temp, because when you open the door, you lose about 25 degrees. So... preheat to 475, load the bread in, immediately reduce oven setting to 450, and etc.
4. American flour is different than most non-American flour, so things have to be adjusted for that. How so, I am not sure.
It could be as simple as oven temp. 550 F then 440 F, just seems too hot to me for "bare" (not in a dutch oven) loaves of mostly white flour.
i would try things in this order:
First, use spring water. If that doesn't make a difference, then....
2nd, preheat to 475, but bake at 450 F and 400 F instead of 550 and 440. if that doesn't make a difference, then....
3rd, use a stone instead of steel.
Good luck, and.... WELCOME TO AMERICA! (But so sorry you have to live in or near DC.)
Water: It is filtered water, run of the mill Brita counter cistern. Maybe a bottled water would make a difference, but then again what difference. The dough is all fine and behaves as it should, as long as it is dough. It is in the dough-go-bread-phase where things go awry and I cannot see how the water in it self would effect the outcome. But I am all ears if you care to elaborate.
Steel and stones: Yes, steel behaves differently from stone/ceramics, the most prominent feature is the heat transfer coefficient, 'speed' of heat delivery so to speak. The gist is: Steel 'delivers' heat much quicker than 'stone' (in general). Actually it radiates heat to the air on the oven so the steel surface will have a lower temperature than the environment (air in hot oven). But even if it is 'cooler' (read less hell hot) than a stone it delivers this heat quicker and hence it burns the bread easier (ergo I 'insulate' with semolina, problem solved).
Now, heat capacity, the capacity for 'storing' heat, is a different story. That is more an issue of a coefficient and mass. Thick slab of steel holds more heat than thin, but conducts it at the same 'speed'. Stones usually have to be bigger (a matter of density) to hold same amount of heat as the steel and it is here my concern comes: Is the 14"x16"x1/4" Baking Steel slab having a lower heat capacity than my slab of ceramics in the motherland? Is that the reason why not enough heat is delivered into the 4.2 lbs of dough and hence it wont rise until 20 minutes instead of 10? I doubt it though, but if there is anyone out there who has been able to compare the standard Baking Steele to, lets say, this Fibrament-D slab please step forwards.
Finding conductivity and capacity values for steel is pretty straight forward on ze interwebz but for the ceramic slab it is harder. I am not used to units common in the U.S. in general, and I have an especially hard time to understand "Heat capacity, 1.01" without any unit or anything indicating what is measured for the Fibrament-D so I cannot tell differences from a theoretical perspective.
Now, above is all theory, reality happens in the oven and here I might be wrong. Hence I want to know if someone has hands on experience with comparing a proper (Baking) steel and a proper 'stone slab', for example the Fibrament-D slab, and can tell the difference instead of theorizing (like I do in lack of reality)
Temperatures: My rationale is to initially pack as much heat into the bread as possible (without chaos and destruction coming into play) and thus kick off oven spring asap. A steel or stone slab helps with that, steam as well. But you have a point - given that the steam vents out faster than when I bake at home it would mean that crust forms earlier, so yes, then, actually lowering temperature will slow formation of crust through radiation and thus it can, with the same mass of steam, be easier for the bread to spring within certain constraints, even though it is cooler and less heat will be punched into the dough. You have a point, there might be a window worth exploring.
Flours: Yes they differ, indeed. The best I found so far for white bread/reinforcement of weak doughs/pizza is BRM Artisan flour. Anyone out there who knows a better one, preferable something similar to tipo-00 that can be bought on bulk for a reasonable price? All suggestions are appreciated. I try to find some local baker that I can score a 25 lbs bag of good quality flour but no luck so far and the big whole sale companies on ze interwebz incurs hefty shipping fees.
WELCOME TO AMERICA: Thx =) DC has its pros. And cons. But all in all I look forwards to spend a couple of years here - great country, great people.
1. Softened water can create problems with oven rise, that a mere filter will not remove or fix. If your house/apartment has a water softener installed, that is most likely at least part of the problem. It's not about just the water and the dough. Softened water affects the bake, the crust and how the water is baked off. Our water problems and treatments are poorly understood by most Americans, let alone Europeans who haven't experienced American water and American household water treatmeants. There are so many variables on water sources, municipal treatments, and in-home treatments. It can get very complicated.
Seriously, you need to know if your house/apartment has a water softener installed. If you do, then do not drink or cook or bake with tap water, unless it has "bypassed" the softener device/system. Filtering water that has gone through the softener is not sufficient for good baking results. It is better to filter "bypass" water (water that has not gone through the softener), or purchase bottled spring water for baking. And, bottled "purified water" will bake differently than bottled "spring water." Personally, I prefer bottled spring water.
2. My theory is that the 550 degree steel is likely transferring heat _too quickly_ to the loaf, killing off yeast too soon, so the final burst of CO2 production is less, hence less oven spring.
3. THere are temp differences between ovens. And they are notoriously inaccurate. If you set your old oven to 550 F, maybe it was actually 475 to 500. You new oven might be more accurate, or might be off in the opposite direction. It is possble that the actual temp of your new oven is 20 to 80, maybe 100, degrees hotter than your old oven, even when both were set to the same temperature setting.
Dan Ayo has done controlled experiments showing (on video even) how even just a 25 degree increase in temperature can prevent the splitting of the loaf at the score.
25 degrees is easily within the variation ranges of different ovens. That is another reason I suggest experimenting with lower temps. 550 F in an American oven is just too hot for a bare loaf made with all white flour. 500 is also likely too hot, based on what I've seen in Dan's videos. So with the steel and excess temp, you're likely killing the yeast too quickly, and hardening the crust too soon.
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Also, could you please confirm if your new oven is a convection oven or not?
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You've made at least four changes since Sweden, 1) the flour, 2) the water, 3) changing from stone to steel, 4) the oven. And, there is more difference in the ovens than just how they hold steam. (And perhaps the yeast and salt, too?)
Your old formula and procedures were customized, adjusted, "tweaked" or "dialed in" for a specific combination of all those factors. So, it seems illogical to focus on just the steaming issue.
I admit, I am guessing as a remote observer, having not seen your old nor your new set-up. But, guesses from strangers is what you asked for. :-)
a) the water (if you have a softener) ,
b) the temperatures (too hot)
c) steel vs stone. maybe put a not-pre-heated inverted baking pan over the baking steel, to slow the heat transfer.
Good luck amigo! I look forward to gorgeous bread pics.
Water: Good point idaveindy. I do not know if the building has treatment but it would be reasonable that added chemicals (if that is the case) could play games when heat is introduced. The treatment might give a perfectly fine dough but grant other qualities in the oven, good point indeed. I will check the house for treatment but also get some spring water. Then I would know if even the water itself, softening or not, could meddle with things. Control is good, thanks for your thoughts, it is so easy to take things for granted. I grew up with water from a spring on the mountain, where I live now in Sweden has crazy soft water (naturally) but here in DC I haven't got a clue. Good point.
Temperature: Of course, I should check the oven for temperature consistency. I have done that at home, ages ago but still, it is just slightly off but consistently, and the compensation on the dial is 'in the wrist'. Better get myself a good 'in oven' thermometer and be done with it. (I have ETI:s at home, the British original called 'Thermoworks' here in the states, golden standard back home, gotta love good tools)
If temperature is way off the charts then your theory about killed fungi might just hold up. Delayed oven spring as a consequence of gas already in the dough taking longer to expand rather than yeast bumping the gas production. Less gas to expand showing expansion at a later stage as it takes more heat for it to happen. like a two stage rocket where stage one is exponentially affecting the reach of stage two. Worth to explore.
Oven type: Convection,yes. Am I using it, no. As I see it convection rather dries the bread out than bakes it. This is based on experiences 'early in my cereer' as an aspiring bread baking buff, the kitchen variety.
Changed variables: Yes, you are right, flour has had to change indeed (to great disappointment), water, heat battery and oven too. Salt is NaCl so no voodoo there, and yeast is sourdough so yeas, but only so much. Of course there is a huge change in variables but so far I have been able to tweak (finding right basic ingredients mostly) until reaching results playing out as they were expected. Except for this football shape that I blame on lack of steam, which would be consistent with 'traditional science' in the area.
But of course, a bunch of factors earlier in the process could play together and come out with the same result except tweaking the steam wont change that. The classic 'ice cream causes drowning' scenario comes into play. So a thorough overhaul could indeed be useful. Put an upside-down baking pan on the baking steel is quite genius, cheap check of your 'premature death of yeast' hypothesis. Check the water quality would be the easy/cheap to take control of by a walk to Safeway. A check up on temperature consistency is important in any case, for future fine tuning par example. Revisit old flours after that, also cheap and easy. Then it would be stone/steel after that, as stone of decent quality comes at a pretty penny. But actually, first, go dutch oven stylie as that would provide an answer on the steam issue for virtually no cost/effort at all with a high level of control on steam.
Guesses: Data/hard facts are always preferable over reasoning alone but reasoning with coherence/logical arguments an lack of data is never to be frowned upon.
Bread pics: When the issue/s are solved pictures will show up. With proper description of solutions/fails.
Judging by the color of the crust steam is not the issue.
If not the steam.
Sorry, I didn't notice the coil in the photo you posted of the vent. As to different conductivity of stones, you can find lots of info on various stones including fibrament, cordierite, saputo, and others though I think conductivity is more critical to pizza than bread https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=49.0
As to closing off a vent, I would try other alternatives first. I assume your oven controls use electronic digital controls ( I have a gas Blue Star - so standard analog controls ), and I have read some concerns that excessive steam build up in an oven with digital controls can fry the control board. I don't think there are any issues with the steaming methods discussed on TFL, but I would not want to seal off a vent that the manufacturer put there until the last resort.
Thx barryvabeach! That looks like a great resource, perfect for loosing myself and culture my nerdness in until my wife slaps me back into reality (but she appreciates both the pizza and the bread - I cannot see the wrongdoing of delving into heat conductivity numbers!... ahem.. anyways..)
You might be just right about the controls. There are a lot of bells and whistles, touch controls and what not on this oven/range of mine so I better be careful. And long for the days when an oven was an oven and not a space ship. Seriously, I love this gas range, best I have been working with, great control of the burner and that comes at a pretty penny. Back home I have an induction top, even greater resolution of the heat control and quick as a weasel to change. When the touch control has trudged itself through the levels and there is not a smudge of grease or a drop of water on the fancy touch controls, then you are done for when you need to do instant regulations. And a spatter from the frying pan or drop of water from wherever in the kitchen is unheard of.. what is wrong with a good ol' flippin' nob! Oh, well =)
"Seriously, I love this gas range, best I have been working with, great control of the burner and that comes at a pretty penny. "
Gas? For some reason I thought it was an electric oven. I saw the "broiler" heating element in the pic, and assumed electric oven, but then I suppose a gas oven could still have an electric broiler (top) element.
Can you please confirm whether the oven is heated by gas or an electric element from the bottom? Gas ovens -do- vent quicker/more than totally electric ovens, and will give problems when trying to steam for bread. That would greatly change the picture I had in mind, and in that case, I would concede that steaming plays a bigger role than I had previously envisioned.
You previously wrote "set the oven for pyrolytic - and Bobs Artisan is your uncle!). And then it was time - for bread."
I thought "pyrolytic" was an intentional use of humor on your part, but perhaps I misunderstood. Is that an official term for "using both the bottom gas burner and the top electric broiler element"?
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If your American oven is a gas oven, and your oven in Sweden was electric, then we will have to take a slightly different tack. Yes, I still think type of water and baking temperature may still come into play, but the steaming system will have to be adjusted somehow, either by using an inverted bowl over the loaf, or a dutch oven, or more water in the steam pan.
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By the way, baking stones for bread need not be expensive. They don't have to be as thick or massive for bread as they usually are for pizza. What's optimum for one is not necessarily optimum for the other. I bought a good baking stone at Big Lots for about $12. They are $10 at Aldi, and usually $15 at Kroger grocery store. Much cheaper than a dutch oven.
The Lodge 3.2 qt cast iron combo cooker dutch oven is normally $34.90 at Amazon, or about $30 when on sale. Includes shipping. This is the one I have, and I have used it to bake loaves of near 100% whole grain up to 1632 grams, 3.59 pounds.
The Lodge 5.0 qt cast iron combo cooker is normally $39.90 at Amazon, or $35 when on sale, including shipping.
Thank you for your patience with my didacticism.
@idaveindy - No worries mate, I should have been clear about it - oven is as electric as they come. Second time now in one thread assuming people being mind readers =) Comes with, ahem, old age and *cough* wisdom..
Pyrolytic: A mode for (electric) ovens that cranks up the heat beyond top temperature settings to such levels that 'oven goo/build up' of this and that over time, is supposed to be burnt to such extent that it turns to fumes/ashes. Ovens harboring this feature are called 'self cleaning' ovens, always debatable of course but can be used to an advantage when baking pizza and the need for '11' on the dial arises.
(Just realized there is a bad joke in the 'dad department' here: bake the dials on a gas burner et voilá - Hob (k)Nobs. I will never be able to unthink this... *shudder*)
Stones: I have been perusing the Pizzamaking.com forum regarding different kind of stones. Being given that deceiving link by @barryvabeach on the matter earlier in this thread, I realize I have to rethink my approach on the 'stone question' to quite the extent. Scales from eyes hath fallen and purses hath probably to be emptied. Alas.
(Why @barryvabeach, why you do this to me! =)
DO: I will have try outs this week with the Le Crueset I have managed to lay hands on temporary. If DO turns out to be the path to take Lodge is indeed the choice. No parallel bread baking anymore (1+ loaves), but serial arson will have to do.
Didactism: Didact away!
(Read: keep on didacting. Nothing else :)
One inexpensive solution would be to cover the bread and baking steel with an upside down metal mixing bowl. Or, use a steel cooking pot with a lid. It is the same idea of sealing steam in an enclosed space as the dutch oven, using materials you might have already.
That would proof if A) the issue is steam, B) if baking steal is the/a culprit as well and C) come out at no cost at all. Simple as that. Like your tinking BaoziNYC
And it worked - like a charm. Seems like steam is not the entire problem (see further down in the thread) but at least I have now been able to confirm that in a cheap and simple way. Good thinking BaoziNYC, thanks.
Glad it worked out! I still get a better ear and rise with a dutch oven than the metal bowl. Maybe it seals better that way, or the radiant heat is closer? But if I want a larger size than my dutch oven, the bowl works fine.
You are quite right I think, DO probably seals better, I will also up the confinement for the next bake. This time I left a little 'glimpse' into the bowl open so the initial steam flash and then the hot towels could be caught and 'feed' steam into the dome. Next time I will only give it a steam flash and then nudge the bowl to close the gap, the dough should produce steam enough on its own and thus the steam pressure should be higher. Not as high as the DO, but still.
To me, the oven temp seems awfully high. For lean bread loaves, the preheat I use is about 500°F (260°C), then when the dough is in, I reset the temp to 400-450°F depending on the size and shape of the loaf. Enriched doughs need even lower temps, say 360-375°F, to avoid burning the crust.
Blocking the venting may be simple, or not. My previous home's electric oven was vented, but the exhaust point wasn't reachable. I would use a disposable, aluminum roaster pan laid over the loaf to hold in the steam, and remove it to vent.
My oven, today, vents through the center of the left, rear, range-top burner. I can block that by stuffing a wet dish towel in the pipe, then simply remove it when it's time to vent. But wait! There's more. I have a small, portable, steam generator which I use to inject steam through the vent pipe. Woo-hoo!
gary
addendum: I am assuming an electric oven. If you use gas, blocking the oven interior vent is dangerous to the point of being lethal. Unless you Know, with a capital K, that you have a white oven, i.e. the burner vents around the cooking box itself, don't do it. I've only seen that in wood or coal burning ovens. ~g
Temp: It is high yes, but with a good steaming environment that is not a problem in my experience. More heat is pushed into the bread without too much singing/charing and due to higher heat moist in the dough/bread is pushed out quicker and with higher probability a good crispy but thin crust is developed. But ymmv. N.B. that this has to be put into the context of my setup at home, and apparently I am doing constant catastropy/massacre here. So my say on the matter has not much weight under these different circumstances.
Vent blocking: Oven is electric and I would love to do it but the flat is a rental and the range is not cheap at all. Realized when I did research for a new glass for the oven (please find my earlier adventures in initial thread post) that it cost like 2k 10y ago. It is probably stuffed with fragile electronics and I have earlier in this thread been warned about tampering with the vent as this might fry the gear. I would not wish a broken rig for the apt owner as well as there might be the risk that the new rig would be something inferior. Because this is good kit.
Steam generator: I would just love to tinker with something like that! =9 Even though steam is sorted with a splash of water on the bottom of the oven back home I could so implement some a gadget that goes 'pysch-pysch' if not for better control and result so for fun-fun =) Keep up the tinkering good work! =9
While I've never had the opportunity to work with flours that are available in Sweden, my first guess is that they are lower in protein than most flours available here in the States. If that is the case, it isn’t surprising that the oven spring takes longer to occur. Stronger flour yields stronger dough, which requires more force by the internal gases to inflate.
The other factors you have considered certainly contribute but I’m not confident that they have as much effect as the differences in the flours.
Paul
Good point, sir. A quite standard bread flour, KA, comes at 12.7% protein where the standard in Sweden comes at 12%. I use BRM Artisan here that weighs in on a stunning 13.9% protein (and with the additive of malted barley for a diastatic booster.. Reason I still use it despite the additives is that it tastes best of the white wheat flours I have tried so far, and I find the milling is quite fine, which suits my purposes)
A 'U.S. flour' would yield a 'tougher dough', but at the same time having more gluten strings catching more gas. I dare not say on which level there is a break even in stronger forces of the expansion of gas vs 'protein stretch forces' or even if there is one, but we can surely assume that more gas is caught with higher levels of gluten. Perhaps needless to say but still: The argument being present that similar gas production due to fermentation is obtained comparing similar dough being prepared with the different kinds of flour. A flour with a slightly higher protein level would have to be slightly higher in hydration to obtain equal levels of saturation. Other than that - no differences.
Now, the expansion of gas would, as a consequence of rising temperature peak later in the 'oven spring phase' of the 'oven time'. I just now invented that term, 'oven spring phase' to describe the time from t0, where dough and water and what not is put in the oven until tVentAndChangeTemperature, that will come in around 10-20 mins (closer to 20 in my case).
Reason for this being that first comes 'yeast boost phase' another just invented term describing the time from t0 until tYeastDiesDueToTemperature. During this time the yeast get an extra push producing gas. Now, from t0 the temperature of the dough will rise, yeast will up and die on us and gas will continue to expand at higher and higher rate until the crumb can't hold no more/the crust is formed. After this the excess gas that cannot be held by the dough/bread is then vented.
Steam also comes into play as part of the expansion but that plays a minor role mostly in the very beginning when the outer parts of the dough surpass steam point (100c/212f). With higher pressure in the dough, closer to the core, comes that the steam point will rise and, yeah, you get the point, water turning to steam in the dough only contribute so much in the big picture.
However, higher gluten flour is used by the baker to hold more gas and hence get fluffier bread. The physics is rather equal so the phases, weaker or stronger white flour of the same type in game, would progress more or less identically. The difference being though that the high protein dough would expand more, but the timings would be the same, more or less. Fluffier bread though, in the end.
My point being that lack of steam gives tougher 'skin' hence less room for yeast boost, hence the gas mass is diminished. Proper spring will commence when gas pressure will overcome the outer forces, and that would be held back by a crust formed as a consequence of lack of steam to delay the the said crust formation. Hence the level of protein would not come into play whether my bread comes out as footballs or not. I am happy to have my argument challenged.
Fun fact: In Sweden you will find a tipo 00 bakers quality wheat flour at 12.5% at the supermarket. That is better than the BRM Artisan, not twice as good but at $2.50/4.4 lbs it comes at half the price. And this is no import from Italy. I probably should consider to start an import business. Or find some bakers quality flour here =) (help!)
I looked at the bread and thought "my, what a dark dusty crust you got, grandma!" Then to read it's an all white loaf just about confirmed my opinion that the loaf looks too dark for a white loaf. The shape doesn't bother me, can slice nicely for a toaster but what European makes regular use of a toaster? (Generalizing here.) Cleanest gadget in the house! If you did the crust would surely burn, anyway that leads me to think that most of that D.C. Store Bread might be better toasted. "When in Rome..."
So I think, use the pot first, have some fun and see what you get. That will surely make a difference. If not, lower the temperature on the pot and later without the pot. Mom would always bake an Angelfood cake in a new oven. She could tell if the oven was off by 25°F either way and if the coils were working. That was before you could buy a $5 oven spring thermometer in a hardware store. I travel with one, also one for the fridge. Could be the fridge temps are also cooler or warmer than accustomed. I find that with the new surroundings, new equipment, etc. all the senses are on "alert" and can often overthink the situation.
I do have questions about the oven set up. How high is the loaf baking in the oven? Could it be too high up in the oven? (The same Q will soon apply to the pot.) I suggest starting out with the top of the dough dead center in the middle of the oven. Does this Oven also have more inner volume than the Swedish one? It sounds like the top range is gas and the oven electric, true?
oh... Tweak only one thing per loaf. One change at a time. You could speed up and bake smaller loaves to tweak more often. Keep notes.
Doughbert, sorry about the link, but I did have some conscience, I linked just to the forum on stones, there are forums on ovens, pizza styles, starters, etc - a bit overwhelming.
I am ever so grateful mate. Don't forget that =)
The steel is placed on the lower third, so the dough will initially be slightly under mid level of the oven space, moving the steel one notch upwards would place the dough just above the mid level. Nothing that differs from my practice back home.
Volume is larger indeed. I have compensated the steam volume by adding more water to the initial 'splash'. Water expands ~1,600 times so the extra 1/2 cup added for initial steaming should be sufficient. And then some.
I have actually given it a last chance to bake directly on the steel slab. I preheated on 550f for 45 mins, put trays with steam towels soaked with boiling water in the bottom and preheated another 15 mins. Then the dough goes on the slab together with a cup of water on some lava rocks, also placed on the bottom, preheated together with the towels. All in all the bottom is covered with trays, most of them towels and a smaller portion of lava rocks.
Oven spring starts earlier but the result is the same - football with a decent crust. Not tough, slightly crunch, good taste but rather thin, which would be consistent with an early developed 'skin'.
When the oven is vented heat/steam of course escapes, but not the kind of punch in the face that sends you sprawling with glasses covered with condensation (figurative). So, more steam than with only lava rocks and some towels but not enough, not close to what I get at home with half a cup of water (and of course a soft surface of the dough venting steam in it self) where I step out of harms way when opening the hatch. Here I can hold my head right over it, not pleasant but possible.
The trays with towels removed during venting are indeed steaming but apparently not enough surface to give the venting some competition. What we can deduct from this is that steam plays a salient role in oven spring (no surprise), lowering from 550f to 500f when putting the bread on the steel makes the temperature only being able to climb to 478f (ovens own readings). With steam venting out, the heat is also vented on a higher rate. No voodoo - only physics.
(after venting the temp is set to 440f for the duration of oven time)
So, to keep steam levels high enough I would have to add more towels, put them on a rack above but not covering the bread. Or connect a steam injection contraption. Or cover the vent. Or open the hatch when oven spring starts to move for real and cut the dough then. Or go DO.
To be continued.. XD
Bread flour. As you're not too aggressive with a long fermenting time, why not leave the dough to bulk longer?
Try letting it puff up and ferment longer before shaping and cooling down in the fridge. (What is the temp on the fridge?)
The crust color certainly doesn't look overproofed.
Another curiosity Q... What is your elevation in Sweden? 300m? Sea level?
[edit: adding baking temperature 500f)
Fermenting time: Yesterday I upped the fermenting time to ~4h (~77f/25c), alas with not much impact on the dough - which makes me curious..
Retarding: The dough is preshaped, rested for ~20 mins on a cutting board (a cold granite counter top is a great way to step on the breaks), shaped to a bâtard (careful, no pounding) and goes into a basket that goes into a plastic container/box with a lid to keep a 'humid' environment and to avoid 'cold shock' (or whatever the term might be here') and then into the fridge for retarding (we call it cold proofing) for ~11h this time. Temperature being ~45f / 7c.
I don't know if retarding in a closed container is come il faut here but it is a recommended practice, especially when retarding outdoors below freezing point (when you even retard the dough trough/box in another box and perhaps a blanket depending on temperatures to get proper insulation). Sebastien Boudet introduced me to it (bookwise), especially effective when you do long term retarding of doughs. Smear a thin coat of oil on the inside and the doughs will be handled so easy during folds.
Oven was preheted on 550f for 45mins, added lava rocks and hot towels for another 15, turned down to 500f, put the dough on the steel slab and covered it with a stainless steel bowl slight 'ajar/over the edge of the slab' so it would catch that steam flash from the lava rocks. Baked for 15mins, vented and removed towels and rock together with the bowl (good punch of steam when I did so), lowered to 440 f and let it sit for another 25mins. And this is what I got..
Still football, still no ear..
The crust is ok, nothing new under the sun. You can see some signs of ear about to develop. But that's it.
Conclusion: Steam is a culprit, look at that improvement of t0 - tEndofYeastRise, a humid environment gives better chances for 'yeast spring' but second phase, tPeakGasExpansion not so much. Something is off and it is not the 'American oven'. I have to go back to the drawing board.
Change water and then change flour. I am looking into a Fibrament-D slab instead of steel but I am not going to take that leap just yet. I have steel here and cordierite back home, an addition of Fibrament-D slab would lower the 'heat conductivity spectrum threshold'. And that might actually suit purposes of baking of larger size breads with more time in the oven. (I have been doing homework on pizzamaking.com)
Sea level: In Sweden ~58m, and actually here in Georgetown, D.C. ~58m above sea level
I still think 550 degree oven is too hot for white bread, mon ami.
Did you find out if your apartment building (or just your apartment) has a water softening system?
Also, before you spend big bucks on a baking stone, check the discount stores if they are convenient to you:
Big Lots, Tuesday Morning, Aldi. $10 to $15 should do it,
Errata: Good call, I hadn't put first phase baking temperature in my post above, 500f, but now it is in place.
Softening of water: I have not found out yet if the building has a system for it but I will in a few days. What I have done though is, since made me aware of the matter, is starting to notice a few things. Soft water means less minerals, minerals will show if water is turned into steam. I am an avid tea drinker, normally 3-4l (~1 US gallon), hence I use the kettle alot. As an avid tea drinker (or whomever else using the kettle alot) I always leave a mirror of water on the bottom after boiling water - to lessen mineral build up.
I have taken measures to diminish build up but still, I have virtually, for real-real, none buildup, whatsoever - zilch, nada, nema nichta, nulla, jack sh*t f*ck all, åsit å it nå. There should be some traces at least and that tells us a story. If it is not for added chemicals harmful to the dough (and what not) then it is for lack of minerals that the little buggers need to breed, and either will probably have an impact. And on top of that I have picked up a rumour that the water in DC is not given a regular chloride treatment (is it called that?), here is used something that wont vent out of the water. Just rumours but the smell is there, weaker but still after filtrating. I will confirm both rumour and existence of water softening contraption soon I hope.
So, I have now spring water and will try my luck. I will admit though that I was quite skeptic when you brought up the issue first time. Being brought up with water from a spring up the mountain and later with still decent water quality I have become ignorant, it has never been an issue for me.
I will update as soon as I set a new dough (whatever might be the correct US term =) And if it is the case that the water is the issue: I will be the first to admit my mistake =9
Discount stores: We have no car and with Safe way 15 mins walk away then big stores/malls are not frequently visited (Uber is ridiculously cheap and convenient in DC so it is hard motivating the expense), but you def have a point. But then again, Black friday is coming up, there are bargains to be made =9
Maybe someone in the water industry can give a newer and better explanation, but here is my understanding. The normal household device that we call a "water softener" does not -remove- the minerals from water. It alters them somehow. (Binds them? Makes them into salts? De-ionizes them?) I forget exactly how. But it alters them so they don't make as much "scale" in your teapot, pots, pans, and shower/bathtub. But.... the molecules are still there, in some form, just a different form than before the water went through the softener device.
So "softened water" (ie, hard water that has passed through a softener device) is definitely not the same as mostly-mineral-free water that comes from rivers and reservoirs, which originally comes from rain.
So, I'm not saying that the minerals in spring water will work better for you. I'm not saying that "softenED" (past tense) water is bad becaude it has no minerals. I'm saying "softened water" is bad for drinking and baking because it STILL has minerals, but in some altered form, or else has some added substances to counteract the scaling effect.
If you know what to look for, and compare two samples of water side by side, you can tell if one is softenED (past tense) because it will feel slippery compared to the other sample, whether or not the other sample has minerals or not.
So really, there are three over-all general types of water coming out of our taps:
1. soft water, no minerals, that comes from reservoirs, lakes, and rivers.
2. hard water that comes from wells drilled where the water table is in limestone.
3. softened water, where the water has the same source as #2, but it passes through a "softener" in your house or building.
Then, there are myriad different kinds of municipal water treatments, and household, or countertop devices for filtering/purifying.
--
Also, thank you for teaching me that there are appliances that combine an electric oven with a gas range/stovetop. I did not know that. Also, that "pyrolytic" means the cleaning cycle of a self-cleaning oven. I've known about them, but never had one.
Word. I am with you on softening of water, my understanding on most of the issue is found here
(Wikipedia - aka the Truth! Oh.. well.. =) So, it (wiki as source) is up for debate, but on a general level I assume it will do.
Some minerals/(cat)ions are removed/altered into another form. Lack of the removed mineral, or presence of another mineral/softener might be problematic when baking. I guess that is the gist of it?
And spring water is now to be tested with the rationale that it will work better for baking as the mineral content is 'balanced' (~ish), there are no residues of chlorine or other 'anti septic' (hopefully disinfected with UV light), no residues of softening agent, and solids to a certain degree is filtered out. It seems plausible to me and worth to try.
Doughbert, please post a closeup image of a full slice of bread. I want to take a look at your crumb.
Danny
Sorry, it is promised for a collegue of the missus - next time! =)
(Or I just chop it up and they will have to live with getting 2 halves in the future =)
[edit: typo]
at 7° C It's winter and 20% sourdough levain. ( a 1:5 feeding ratio) Hmmmm. What happens if the loaf is shaped after the fridge retard with a short stint in the banneton at room temp? That might give you more surface tension on the loaf.
If I exclude the container the fridge temp is 6C. And it can as well be lowered.
Post fridge shaping and then proofing in banetton (1h, 2?) would def affect tension. Worth to search consider.
Bert, you could slice either half are all of the loaf that you give away. My neighbors are spoiled and always want it sliced. It makes a very nice presentation also.
These bags are inexpensive and work well.
Danny
:D Yeah, especially now when things don't work out as I want it to and I bake anew almost on a daily basis. Collegues and neighbors are well fed :D
Those bags look good, usually have paper bags but now when the outflux is so large that seems to me a better alternative.
Hi Dan, please find attached pictures of crumb (and crust) a few posts down. It is OK crumb, not good, but OK. Some big bubbles that I chalk up to very delicate handling of the dough.
I have experienced bubbles like that before (not like a 'lining' just beneath the surface like under proofed dough) years ago in my early 'career' when I was cautious with the dough. As well as delicate handling to save the dough when it is about to 'tear' (don't know the proper English term), is over due or have air pockets incorporated (more or less on purpose due to folding), during experiments.
Cheers! // Bert
Hi,
Hope Thanksgiving went well for all of you. I experienced my first proper Thanksgiving and ate turkey until it popped out me ears - great holiday! =)
However, the bread baking battle began anew after I had stuffed myself on stuffing. Now I was using 'spring water' (right outta the supermarket) for the dough, the oven preheated to 550f for 1h, the dough was scored 3 mm deep ( ~1/8"), baked @500f for 20 mins on the baking steel under a metal mixing bowl and got a stiff steam flash (big entry to the mixing bowl and the lava rocks tight under it when water was poured) and the bowl was then closed directly after steam flash. After 20 mins the bowl was removed, temp lowered to 440f and then another 25 mins. In all else the bread is made as described above this post And here is the result.
The massive amount of blisters developed (crunch) is due to steam in abundance and it is no football anymore (yay!) The crumb is ok, it is not glistening (like C-beams) but we are on the way (to the Tannhäuser gate) and it tastes OK as the crumb is expanded and all the water not making things all gummy, now it is chewy instead. It is ok colourwise, greyish. The texture is quite uneven but that I pin on me being quite careful not de-gassing the dough to ensure expansion. There is a teeny-weeny ear developed.
Conclusion: Changing water has an impact, I was quite the skeptic initially but now I stand corrected. Cutting to half the depth instead of ~5-6mm (1/4") when scoring had impact on the dough not going 'pancake'. As timings etc are the same as earlier it can be assumed that the change of water makes the dough mature 'better' which can be seen on the sides, they are lifting slightly but not going football like a under proofed dough.
Next bake I am planning on being more 'violent' (like 'normal' violent) with the dough to get rid of the big bubbles and hopefully develop a more even crumb with a better lustre. What I noticed this time when the dough had started to develop/mature properly was that the consistency got more lik 'a blob', more wobbly, like a good dough should be. Hard to explain but I hope you understand. It is still not having the oven spring that it should have but that is not too far away and tweaking a little more should take me there. Also I should give it maybe 5 mins more or up the temp a little, the crust is OK texturewise but it certainly needs a little more of that 'Maillard oumph'
I would like to thank you all for your encouragement and good ideas/thought provocation. I will post here when there are developments of significance but right now I feel I am on the right path. The ingredients for the bread are mayhaps not as forgiving as back home, and ovens a tad keen on letting their heat out. But it is proved, afaiac, that proper bread is achieveable.
An update of the initial post will be made to sum up the 'solution' so future readers can get the gist of things quickly. You are welcome to comment on things that you think should be there for the case in point.
Thx // Bert
Bert, the images help.
For a great ear and nice crumb, the bloom and oven spring needs to be larger.
Three Thoughts
I am not sure that any of the 3 thoughts are valid in your case, but they merit consideration.
I hope somethings helps.
Danny
I must say, you could teach classes on blisters! They are exception...
There has been a slight halt on the sourdough for a few days, but here comes an update.
Better bloom this time, but now when I am tougher with the shaping gumminess shows its ugly face again. But I had a suggestion for that from a fellow baker IRL - up the hydration. My response was of course "What...?" but the rationale was easy enough to buy. The fellow baker said that the flour in particular, BRM Artisan flour, comes with an almost inherent gumminess. My answer was "What...?" again.
Said person had used BRM AF to compensate lack of protein when baking wit rye etc. Now trying a clean wheat dough at 72% hydration resulted in gumminess, but that was not the case when mixing with rye etc. (when hydration are at whole different levels of course) So the dough was upped to 75% and the dough did not behave much differently when handling it, but there was better development of the crumb. So, now when I have solved the steam issue I will give it a go again at 75%. Unfortunately I only had KA bread flour in the pantry this time so it will have to wait a couple of days.
However,
The heat - I see your point but in my case I am covering the loaf with a metal mixing bowl that also has caught a healthy steam flash, so there are two factors for lowering the temperature during spring.
Too much steam - Could be an issue. Back home where the oven can hold steam I have some times forgot to vent when baking and that has resulted in a pale loaf after 40 mins. Steam holding down temperatures and with a constant moist dough it is harder to give colour to/form the crust). I had to keep it in the oven forever more to get a proper a crust with colour, but it turned thick and tough and gummy and the crumb was gummy as water could not evaporate properly. There was nothing wrong with the oven spring though.
Regarding the effect of steam on suppleness I cannot say, but hard facts are hard to deny. I have to study that Docs' article. Steam delivers energy quicker into the dough though, so that will probably have an effect on spring. Try some time to sit in a 'dry' or 'wet' sauna with same temperature and the phenomena is pretty clear how humidity effects delivery of energy. Spring starts as the dough gets warmer and the quicker that happens the less the dough will be exposed to radiant heat from above, thus will have shorter time to form the crust/set it. Those is also hard facts to deny. Two theories working against each other - ladies and gentlemen, we have a proper dilemma at hand.
Over fermentation - As my timings for fermentation and temperatures has been under control it seems unlikely, though there has been better results when I have made more shallow scoring in the dough. So it is worth to keep an eye on fermentation, indeed.
Blisters - Class commence: When experimenting I like to keep the dough taught after folds 'are over', if the dough is taught it is easier to see how the dough ferments and/or goes pancake. After 20-30 mins autolyse, kneading and 3 '30 minute folds' I check on it every 45-60 minutes. At these checks I poke the dough, see how shape develops and then tighten the dough with the bowl scraper (in the mixing bowl). The side effect of this is that the dough is sort of pre-shaped several times, so the outer layers of the dough will be pressed tighter and tighter together with the gas between them like laminate and then when I give the dough a steam flash, well, yeah, the blisters are almost like on a danish =)
Class dismissed.
user DanAyo has a Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7mXjnPpTDoVJxRdrG3ZeYw/videos
where he adjusts steam and temperature to get a good split and ear on the score line.
It looks like you got the steam situation well done. But look at his 5th, 6th, and 7th video, counting down from the top. His video illustrates that a temp that's just 25 degrees F too hot can harden and seal (if that's the right word) the crust too soon and prevent a good ear. They are only 42 sec, 46 sec, and 1:02 long.
He's the master (or mad scientist, according to his wife) of oven steaming, piping the steam from a pressure cooker into the oven.
Thx mate, I have not seen all the videos but I already love his work. Cutting grass, down to point, no dead time/ empty speak, focus on the issue. I really, really want to incorporate a steamer now =)
I will look into the temperatures, def. Like I stated above ingredients back home seems more 'forgiving'/can take 'beatings'/'swing' (the tipo-00 is good stuff). And as steam is harder for me to control in this oven and that I use a baking steel instead of stone (not sure of its impact, but still a new variable) temperature might be the way to get in control of things. I will keep you (all) posted.
Cheers! // Bert