November 9, 2019 - 7:59pm
Sourdough feeding - did I leave it out too long?
I keep my 100% rye starter in the fridge until it's needed for baking and I'm trying to establish a weekly feeding session. Yesterday I fed my starter and left it outside the fridge for about 8 hours. When I checked it, it had doubled in size. I put it back in the fridge, but now I'm worried if I left it out too for too long.
How much time should one normally leave a fed starter outside before returning it to the fridge for storage?
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Hi Miller:
I noticed your post on your starter question. I have never had an issue leaving out my starter and then putting it in the fridge at anytime. Sometimes, I change my mind and decide not to bake but yet my starter (Oscar) is lively and tripled in size. I either just put him in the fridge until I need him again or dispose of some, so I don't have too much for the next bake.
I do usually feed Oscar before putting him in the fridge for a rest.
Cheers!
It does not look to have come to any harm and based on what you say I shouldn't be worried about it.
Incidentally, I had put some starter in another jar and fed it in order to give it later to a friend. That one also doubled in size and has lots of air bubbles. I put in the fridge and it still appears very active.
I must start a system to keep the quantity of starter under control. It's accumulating continuously and soon I'll have a problem about what to do with it. The trouble is I don't bake more than once a week. If I did my weight would rise like an active starter, but unlike a starter, unfortunately it wouldn't eventually fall.
Hi Miller:
The starter won't be harmed by refrigeration at all and as for a routine you don't have to feed starter everyday! I only feed Oscar when I plan on a bake, otherwise like you said, there would be a lot of waste! I have divided Oscar for other varieties of breads and experimented with flours to match the bread I'm baking.
I make a 100% sour rye once a week, so Oscar is strictly stone grain rye flour. When I do Sourdough baking I change my starter to stone ground whole wheat or a combination of Spelt and whole wheat. I am not a big fan of sourdough pancakes and quick breads so I limit how big Oscar gets.
I find if I keep Oscar at 50 grams before a bake, then feed him twice the day before the bake, gives me ample starter to do my 2 loaves of sourdough with some to spare to keep Oscar healthy. I put the 50 grams in the fridge and continue the routine.
You can make a schedule that suits you and the amount of starter retained. It can be a very expensive pet to feed if you constantly fed it daily and tossed 1/2 away each time. It's very easy to increase the starter once you have stabilized it. I've yet to kill Oscar! lol 12 years and going strong!
I hope this helps you with "Ryan"
Cheers!
I would like to ask when you feed your starter twice the day before the bake, do you do any discard after the first feeding? I'm going to prep for baking tomorrow, and I intend to feed my starter twice, without discarding any starter after the first feeding. I hope that this is not wrong.
Hi Miller:
it depends on how much starter I need for baking! If I need say 300 grams! I don’t toss any! If I only need say 150 grams for that bake I may Toss a 1/4 of it!
You can streamline the amount by the amount needed! Always leave 50 grams to keep Ryan healthy, then adjust that for the next bake! When I am baking my sour rye I will keep 50grams of it in another jar and adjust the other jar for baking that way you always know you retain enough each time! I had a mishap a few years ago ! Oscar was in the fridge and my daughter went to get something and smash! Went the mason jar! My heart sank but because I remembered I had the 50 grams in there in a smaller jar I was saved! Lol the other jar well I had to feed Oscar for a few days to gain back what I lost and no sourdough for my daughter for a few more days but it all was good! Is she ever careful with opening the fridge now! Lol
cheers!
I also like the possibility of keeping a small quantity as a safety reserve. The story about the mishap with your Oscar was dramatic, but it’s great that it had a happy ending!
I keep my sourdough way back on a shelf in the fridge since I too fear that an accident could ruin it. Ideally, one should keep a dehydrated sourdough quantity somewhere else too. For example, a long power cut could cause a problem if one‘s sourdough is kept only in the fridge. However, let’s not become paranoid!
I discovered that my sourdough that was kept a long time outside the fridge has become very stringy. I’m going to give it an emergency feeding tonight in order to strengthen it and maybe another one tomorrow.
it looks like you have a plan! That’s great! As for the stringy starter! I have had that! I just give Oscar a pure stone grained rye feeding for one of the 2 in the day and he perks right up!
Cheers!
My starter is home milled whole rye. My 'discard', 150g at 100% hydration (3/4 of its total volume), goes into the loaf I'm going to bake. My starter only comes out of the fridge when I'm getting ready to bake and is only refreshed at that time. I've left it out overnight after its refreshment a time or two and returned it to the fridge the next day. Never had any problem with it when that happened. It performed just as well as any other time. The little beasties that call it home have no eyes with which to watch a clock and, being in one sense immortal, no real concept of time or a need for one.
I'm sure that over time I'll become more confident about my starter. It's just that a few days ago when I first used it I made a terrible loaf because of my inexperience. On the upside, I did receive a lot of useful advice when I posted here about it.
I know that there is no precise answer because everyone's starter is different, but would you tell me how much bread you bake with a 150g starter? I don't know if there is a rule of thumb about this, that is, you bake x weight of bread with y weight of starter or, say, that your starter should be z% of the total weight of your bread or something else.
That is a loaded question since I'm sure many will say they have their own formulas on this. I have made a sourdough loaf with 50 grams of starter and as much as 170 grams. My recipe for 100% sour rye is 360 grams. It really is preference and If you are following a recipe then it's usually noted.
I think sourdough bread baking is like landing a trophy steelhead trout on a super light rig! You prepare, have the right tools and perfect your skill. Ask any pro-fisher how do they catch so many fish and they will say, if their honest, patience, persistence and perfection! The same in bread baking! A recipe is only as good as the person reading it! Some may not even follow a recipe, a dash of this and a dash of that and make the most amazing bread in the world!
Others need instructions to follow, either way be proud of what you bake, so many people still just go and buy white commercial bread at the store, that is full of harsh chemicals like potassium bromate, azodicarbonamide, acetone and bleach to name a few. You have made a decision to be healthier and by making your own bread with whole grains and wild natural yeast your ahead of the game by far.
Me, personally, I like working with a dough of 71-72% hydration. I also use diastatic barley malt syrup which gives my bread a wonderful sour tang. Experimenting leads to some of the most amazing breads! I really admire "Sarah Owens" She is a master in baking sourdough breads! I have also been experimenting with mother dough! it's amazing what kind of pre-ferments you can make by adding grapes to the mix.
As for your question on how many loaves of bread you can make on 150 grams of starter, it can get into bakers math and formulas but 2 loaves are no problem at all. Have you looked into bakers math at all?
My mother dough is 61% hydration. I sometimes use Oscar and mother dough together for different sourdough recipes, other times I stick with 100% starter.
I would google Baker's percentage math and there are many posts on this site describing it in more detail. Then you can break your bread recipe down in percentage and know how to substitute different ingredients. It's so fun! you can even take recipes made exclusively for bread-making machines and convert them to conventional recipes.
Have fun experimenting!
Cheers!
Thank you for the information. I suppose that the amount of starter in almost any recipe is not critical, in the sense that with less starter one would need relatively more time for proofing the dough. On this basis I fully agree with you that practice and experimentation would be the best, and probably most fun, way to teach oneself.
Having said that, I don't understand how one handles dough at 71-72% hydration. Every time I tried to follow recipes to the letter (including with instant yeast), my biggest problem was that the amount of water I added resulted in a very wet, sticky, dough. The next bread that I'm baking is going to start at 62% hydration, but some more water will be added as I shall be doing the (three) stretch and folding parts on slightly wet surface and with wet hands. I'll be using bread flour for the dough. Already after the first stretch and fold the dough is pretty sticky!
Hi Miller:
62% hydration should be a fairly easy dough to manage. I can give you a tip that I use exclusively when handling wet dough. I find that if i mist my hands lightly with a spritzer it doesn't add much to the hydration of the dough even with 5-6 stretch and folds it's easy to handle the dough and it won't stick to your fingers. I usually start the autolyse within 20 minutes of the first rest of my dough. I not only believe it strengthens the gluten level but I love watching it turn from a shaggy mass to a high gluten form with a gorgeous window pane when stretched out. So that being said, I usually will autolyse every 30-45 minutes after it rests for say 20 minutes each time before a new stretch and fold.
I tend to do 3 stretch and folds with this span of time in between, then I let the dough ferment further by leaving it 1 hour resting time and stretch and fold again repeating this ( 2 more times) after the 3rd stretch and fold I am careful not to de-gas the dough too much and of course when i am shaping the boules I get to pop the large bubbles that form (the sound baker's love to hear) lively and puffy dough means an amazing loaf of bread ahead!
The minimal moisture added with this method means a workable dough, you will find by the third stretch and fold the dough is silky and smooth and easy to shape. I never add extra flour on my working surface. If your dough is too sticky then I would right from the start add your dry ingredients and then add the water slowly. When you get to a slightly sticky dough stop the water addition and knead the dough for at least 8-10 minutes, by that time you will see if it needs any more moisture added, if so spritz a soft vapor rather than dripping water in or splashing in some with your fingertips.
Cheers!
Many thanks for the information.
I saw a video on YouTube about a "simple" sourdough recipe and I followed it a few days ago. My dough was very wet and sticky. However, the presenter did use the spritzing method which I also decided to adopt for the future. I'm repeating this recipe, but I reduced the hydration, as I wrote earlier, and I'm also cutting down significantly the time for the stretch and fold sessions. The recipe also had an autolyse period of 30 minutes, which I copied and three stretch and fold sessions followed by cutting and shaping and then proofing the dough. The final proofing is done overnight in the fridge.
My dough after three stretch and folds has developed a few bubbles, so I'm guessing that Ryan and his successors have done a good job.
I'll post any interesting developments and the result here later.
You said it! Ryan is doing his job! Bubbles means great bread! If you don't like so many stretch and folds you can limit them to every 1.5 hrs just increase the stretches to more of a make a round shape out of the dough stretch it out from the inside of the dough to make a sorta rectangle then like origami fold inward to just over the center say 13 times, the next stretch and fold you can do say 9 folds then the last only 4.
I have done this many times and still had amazing results!
Good luck with Ryan! Keep me posted, always glad to share my experiences good or bad! lol bread making is an art and every good artist can never duplicate 100% his last work of art! It only gets better!
Cheers!
I’m going to try it in one of my next bakes.
This was supposed to be a reply to Miller's question above but I goofed. The loaf contains 150g of starter - that's 75g of rye, an additional 25g of freshly milled rye and 400g of freshly milled hard red or hard white wheat, 275g of water, 9g of salt, 30g of sorghum molasses and 20g of ghee. The total weight of the loaf is around 850g. It is baked in a 4x4x9" Pullman pan. The percent of starter to flour is roughly 32%. I don't know that there is any 'rule of thumb' for the starter/flour ratio. All I can say is that's the ratio I use to produce this loaf in the context of my schedule - start it in the morning and put it on a cooling rack in the afternoon.
An interesting combination of flours, molasses and ghee. The taste of your bread must be very nice.
I hope that in my baking journey I’ll be able to chart my way to a satisfying loaf that I should be able to complete in a single day. I say this because probably most of the sourdough recipes that I’ve seen so far appear to span over many hours and this isn’t always convenient.
Much of the difference in time is, I think, attributable to the loaf's purpose. I'm not seeking the open crumb and spectacular rise of an artisanal loaf. I looking to produce a sandwich loaf that has an appropriate shape and crumb for that purpose. I use a KA mixer to drive my Mockmill and mix and knead the dough and a pan to control and shape the final loaf for proofing and baking.
I aspire to achieving open crumb, well risen, nice tasting bread. Clearly I’m at the beginning, but I’m learning a lot. What I have to do soon is to sort out basic knowledge from more sophisticated skills. It’s like going to school. You have to go to each class in the correct order. Meanwhile, information from this Forum gives me excellent insight and motivates me to continue.
Hi Justanoldguy:
If I may ask you a question about the mockmill please, that attaches to the kitchen aid?
I will be purchasing a grain mill soon rather than using my Vitamix which works fine but as any good chef loves his tools, I want to have a grain mill that can take care of all my grains I bake with. I have never taken such an interest before in milling my own flour since I heard what some of the commercial flours contain! scary!
So, with that being said, How do you find the speed and quality of the Mockmill attachment for the kitchen Aid ? I have heard negatives as to the speed and wearing down the motor on the kitchen Aid. I have a 600 Pro Kitchen Aid so its a heavy duty machine but I sure don't want to be replacing it because of a dead motor it laboring to mill grains.
Do you find ever does it labor in the grinding and as for the speed is it slow? I bake once or twice a week depending on the loaves I'm making. My stand by bread weekly is Rudbrod sour rye , then I make 2 loaves of sourdough that last my family just under 2 weeks. So I would be milling once a week say 900-1000 grams of grain.
Any information would be much appreciated, since I already have a Kitchen Aid this could save me some money but I am of course willing to buy a Mockmill 200 which is self contained and I hear amazing reviews on! The Komo mill is also in my thoughts.
Thanks in advance!
Cheers!
My mixer (actually it's her mixer - but she lets me use it) dates from 1998 and is also labeled "Heavy Duty". The Mockmill is capable of milling 100g a minute and I'm very happy with its quality and performance. I believe this mixer has a solid state speed control and it doesn't seem to have a problem running almost full out, setting 8 on the dial, when I mill. I mill for each loaf one at a time and the mill puts the flour directly into the mixer's bowl. A 900-1000g session might be pushing the mixer too hard. There are limitations on what the mill can 'digest', only non oily grains, no nuts or coffee as these oily materials will glaze the stones. The same limitations would apply to the 200 model. I like the facts that only my mixer is taking up space on my counter and the convenience of milling directly into the bowl and starting with the freshest flour possible, still warm from the mill.
Thanks so much! I was wondering about this! I am glad to hear that your older model Kitchen Aid can handle the milling! Our last move, I somehow left my Kitchen Aid behind! Talk about being upset! so my husband was a sweetie and surprised me with a new Kitchen Aid last Christmas!
I have no clue how I would have survived without it! Its like part of the family and I use it daily for many things!
I appreciate your quick reply! It's always better to ask someone using the equipment than relying on you-tube reviews, since many are sponsored ads and not accurate information!.
Thanks again!
Cheers!