The Fresh Loaf

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Salt and Vinegar

DJB's picture
DJB

Salt and Vinegar

Today I baked my very first sourdough.  It had some rise - not great and I guess a little stodgy to be quite truthful.  It was cooked but very anaemic and didn't have a crust.  Taste - the first thing that came to mind was 'salt and vinegar chips' - not unpleasant - I guess it ticked the 'sour' box. 

So I won't get any prizes -  that's a given. 

The recipe I used was as follows

3 ½ cups bakers flour
¾ cup sourdough starter
350 ml water
2 tsp salt.

Mix together and let rest for 1hr (autolyse). Stretch and fold 3 or 4 times in the next 2 hrs and let sit for another 4 hrs. Place in the fridge overnight and take out for 1 hr in the morning and bake in oven or bbq for 30 mins covered and 30 mins open at about 210 deg  

I had intended to use a BBQ to cook it in ( one with a hood).  However, I used a conventional oven.  I placed a bowl of water in the oven for steam.  ( one day I would like to use a BBQ to cook however I felt for a beginner using an electric oven would afford more control)

I would be grateful for any advice particularly in relation to (a) a lighter texture crumb with bubble (b) crust development (c) the flavour - a little less 'salt and vinegar'.  

Thanks in anticipation for your time and assistance.

 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If you can supply pictures, it would be a great help.

DJB's picture
DJB

I'm somewhat embarrassed to post this photo - I didnt really attempt to shape as I felt it was going to fail but decided I may as well cook to learn from the process.  From the little bit of reading, I have done post this first attempt I feel it can only be underproofed.  The lack of colour one article I read suggested that the yeast present had eaten any sugar present and hence no caramelised crust - this sort of makes sense ??.  While I have some confidence in my starter I feel it is still not really strong - there was not a great deal of rise in the dough - no evidence of bubbles.  

What I am now wondering is how do I identify when the starter is at its maximum strength.  I  get the concept of using a rubber band to identify the 'baseline' before the rise.  What I dont know is how to identify when the maximum rise is in terms of time.  ie I work and hence cant watch it.  Is there a recognised norm for how long it takes to get a rise post feeding the starter?.  Similarly once the starter is mixed with the flour and water - whats the normal time window one should be anticipating for it to ferment ( prior to placing it into the fridge).  Once again thanks in anticipation for your time and advice.First attempt - no prizes for this one.

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

This bread is underproofed, or really, not proofed at all.  Either your starter is not active, or your house is too cold.  There is no fermentation going on here.  That's why there's no color, or bubbles, just gummy density.  Get your starter right, then you'll be fine. 

phaz's picture
phaz

Dense and no colour to the crust points to over proofed. Although the times given for east stage wouldn't really point you that, uncles you have a very very active starter, which would give the extra sour flavor. If you want to keep the same timing, try a lot less starter in the mix (use half and see what happens).

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks for the feedback - I have attached a photo in reply to an earlier reply to my post - its a very sad looking specimen,  Im embarrassed to post.  From my readings, after this first attempt, I get the impression that there is a very fine line between being over or underproofed.  I have much to learn about this subject I feel.  I think my biggest challenge will be in identifying the times where the starter is most active post feeding and similarly when the dough ( flour water and starter) are at the maximum fermentation prior to shaping and placing in the fridge overnight.  

Im not 100% confident with the starter I have grown - but its starting to give me confidence that its just viable even after it being probably some 4 weeks old.  Having said this its behaviour was very erratic until I added Pineapple Juice for x2 feeds about week 3.  The Juice seems to have made a major difference in its activity.  So may be I need to do a reboot and consider the starter as being a week old - I dont now if this sounds silly. 

Thanks again for your advice.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

doesnt sound silly.  Sometimes if the starter has been dependent on the sugars and acids in the juice, a different adaption has taken place.  Let the starter work itself out and stick to the water.  Adapting may take some time so Patience is key.  Taste the starter to see how acidic it is.  Keep it around 76° to 78° F and let it just work itself out for a day or two. When it tastes good and sour, discard and add some flour & water until it tastes and smells like wet flour.  Then mark it and watch it.

this post may be helpful...   http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11914/how-do-i-strengthen-my-starter#comment-288729

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks for the link and advice

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

You're overthinking the starter.  If you take a few grams of starter (2-3) mix in 20g water, 5g rye, 15g white flour, your starter should be completely fermented (bubbly, airy and light) within 12 hours.  Whether its 1 day old or 5 years old, it will make bread just the same if it can do this.  

If your starter is struggling, feed it straight rye flour for one feed, then it should be fine.  

DJB's picture
DJB

I have read that Rye may be useful - shall give it a go.

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Are you kidding? You think this bread is overproofed?

David R's picture
David R

I want to give you special thanks for posting the picture of the bread that didn't work out very well. All the pictures of success are pretty, but I can't learn much of anything from them. From a picture with a problem, I can really learn something. Look, already there's an interesting controversy in this thread - is that over-proofed, or under-proofed? (I'm betting that those two disagree because there's another factor to this result that's clouding their judgment.)

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

David R: There are always a million factors that can cause this or that result, but there are segments of that gummy dough that have never seen fermentation.  No question this dough is under/not proofed.  

But what unknown factor did you have in mind?

David R's picture
David R

Simply the fact that two people (neither of whom is stupid) could reach opposite conclusions on a single issue when there's evidence in front of them, makes me think the evidence is misleading at least one of them, and maybe both.

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Maybe the other guy hasn't messed up as bad as I have in the past.  I've definitely made some loaves with some flour and water I thought was starter, but it probably wasn't.  

I remember that gummy dough and bland anemic color from my early days as a baker.  It was from the time when I had no understanding of the requirements of producing a functional starter.  Yes, tight crumb and anemic color are signs of overfermentation as well, but not like this.  I've over and underproofed, and I'd bet anything that's under. 

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks kind sir for your comments.  Yep I agree the photo certainly has created some debate re over proofed / Underproofed ( and or query inactive starter).  I need extend my search to learn more about proofing to learn more about proofing.  Differentiating between over/underproofing and identifying the factors that impact the same will help me move forward - well I hope so.  I guess I can only be proud that I have added some balance to the photos posted in this forum.  

phaz's picture
phaz

The crust is what tells me over. Over proofing leaves no sugars left to brown, hence a pale, even grey crust. Length of time and temp of the bake should have given a brown crust, if there we sugars to caramelize.

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Yeah, but if the yeast hasn't even had a chance to make sugars out of the carb chains, the same effect appears.  

If it was overproofed, youd see the crumb looking like ripe starter, not gum. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Over proofing is not the correct / appropriate / accepted terminology here.

From what you describe that is "exhausted dough" or over-fermented.

"Over proof" describes a dough that has risen beyond its limits and begins to be unable to hold the gas pressure, i.e. it collapses and / or doesn't spring in the bake.

Over-proof doesn't connote sugar depletion but a loss of structure.

jcope's picture
jcope

Some ideas, just based on my experience.  I'd look at extending the fermentation time and use a hotter oven.

1) during the autolyse phase, the salt would be left out.  After you autolyse you put the salt in and then ferment.

2) 4 hours at room temperature + overnight in the fridge...  seems like enough time to ferment, but maybe not.  Assuming your house is 68F, your refrigerator stage would need ~60 hours to ferment completely.  I'd guess fermentation was maybe 1/2 complete or a little more.  For reference I ferment my bread at 55F for around 22hours.  If your goal is 16hours fermentation time, I'd extend the room temperature stage to a bit over 9 hours.  Then refrigerate for the rest.

3) The color seems to indicate the oven was not hot enough...  When I bake, I start with the oven at about 540F.  After 7 or 8 minutes I open the door for 2 minutes and back the temperature down to 375F.

4) I've found that kneeding, stretching/folding, etc. can backfire if you are too aggressive.  If you use the refrigerator to extend the fermentation to about 8 hours or longer, you don't have to stretch/fold at all.  You might do a couple gentle ones to wake up the dough, but just enough to turn the dough around a bit.

Note that the time calculations above are based on laboratory measured activity rates of the bacteria and yeast.  I've been using the formulas for years to figure out when fermentation will be complete, and they never have failed me.  I actually keep the dough in a temperature controlled environment as a way to keep the bread on a schedule that works for me.

If you need help determining fermentation times based on temperature, feel free to ask.  You don't find it stressed enough in the recipe books: temperature and time are the keys to your success.  Even more so than the recipe.

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks for your feedback - I have recently read about adding salt post the autolyse.  Your other comments also make sense.  Onward and upwards I guess - well I cant get any worse than this product (photo I posted).  

Benito's picture
Benito

Trevor Wilson in his Champlain Sourdough does what he calls a “pre-mix” this is the flours with the salt and the water.  So essentially an autolyze but with salt, which I know isn’t technically an autolyze.  He does this in the evening the day before he plans to bake so this pre-mix is for the overnight period.

This is the link http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/

I was considering trying this long pre-mix this week and will post if I do.

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks shall have a look at the - there is, as they say ' more than one way to skin a cat'.  I want a simple recipe but nothing in life is simple and I think I forget all too often the complexity of the process at hand.  Fermentation is complex.  

 

phaz's picture
phaz

Reading your ingredients (closer than before) I have a question. What do you mean by bakers flour? Is this something like cake flour? What % protein is it? Also, and I've been mentioning this a bit lately, beware a set recipe unless it's your own based on your own ingredients. Flours and starters can vary greatly. Water can also have an effect but at least it has a lower degree of variation. The most consistent ingredient is salt, so we don't worry about that. As to method - which also values greatly based on a particular set of ingredients - you will have to experiment a little to see what works best under your circumstances. Basic recipe - flour, water, starter, salt - it's really up to you to figure how much of each will give you the best results with your own ingredients. Method - really the easy part - mix up some flour, starter, water and salt - let it sit for a minimum of 5 hrs (no need to do anything with it as it will take care of itself) - shape it - proof it - bake it. Nothing to complicated, but again, you have to figure out how much of what give you the result you want with your particular set of variables.

PS - and remember, once you get a "set" recipe - expect it to change. As you do it more and experience grows, you'll know what to do when things change. Enjoy - at least try to! 

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks for your reply - 'bakers flour' very much a generic term.  The flour I use is 12.5% protien/ unbleachd - very much basic flour.  Yep I appreciate that local flours / local ambient conditions/ oven/ etc are all confounders and as such a recipe is very much just a guide.  The 'zoo' of yeast/bacteria/enzyme - are very much living beats and I get the concept that change is inevitable.  I agree the more I bake ( probably once a week I suspect) the greater awarness I will gain.

 

calneto's picture
calneto

You mention that you baked it at 210 'degrees'. I assume you are speaking Celsius. I usually start baking at 230C (measured with an infrared thermometer), sometimes up to 250C. This is already something that caught my attention. 210C seems too low a temperature.

I also agree that the dough was under proofed, not over. In fact, I have never seen a dough that has for sure sat too long before baking look like this. You do find people who experiment with longer proofs and post pictures and the difference between 'just right' and overproofed is subtle, compared with underproofed.

It is strange, since you mentioned that it has proofed for about 6h. The fact that you do not measure your ingredients in grams also makes it hard to analyze, since I am not sure how much 3/4 cup of starter is, for instance. If it is 20% of the added flour weight, for sure there is something wrong with your starter. I'd invest in a scale and maybe also a thermometer. While you do not have one, you can pre-heat your oven at the maximimum temperature for 30' and then bake, keeping the dial at the max.I sometimes lower it a bit after opeining the cast iron pan, but not always.

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks for your reply - yes I agree that the temp I used in this first bake seemed somewhat low. 

remeasurements - the recipe I followed had a mix of by weight and by volume so agree not easy to interpret.  I think I will stick to by weight as that seems by far the norm. 

As for the starter - Im sure it has some evolution to progress to a strong starter.     I was watching a YouTube video yesterday and I had this realisation that what I was observing with the starter, that I had been interpreting as bubble is more likely to be the fluffy, open gluten matrix.  There is evidence however of some bubble on the side of the container.  In terms of starter rise I do get some volume increase.  I now feel somewhat foolish - its very much a learn as I go journey.   What this all means in terms of how I strengthen the starter I dont quite no - someone suggested add Rye flour for a couple of days.  It cant do any harm I suppose.  

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m new too, but I think I’ve created quite a strong starter now.  I’ve been watching the rise and fall of my starter.  My understanding is that the starter is “mature” when it reaches it peak rise and just starts to fall.  As it is rising the top of it is nicely domed.  As it peaks, the top will flatten and then after peak you’ll see evidence of the starter falling back with streaks along the sides of the container.  I’ve noticed that as the starter has become stronger it doubles a lot faster.  I fed it tonight because I am building my levain tomorrow morning and after 2 hours it was more than double in volume.  But in the days and weeks leading up to this I got a sense of how long this cycle was of rising and falling and I would try to feed the starter when it was mature, just reaching peak or just falling off peak.  It is at that time that the starter has run out of food and the yeast and bacteria won’t have much to eat and will start to be dormant.  if you feed it then, they won’t go dormant and will more quickly replicate and making your starter stronger.  Once my starter was growing quickly I put it into the fridge and now just take it out to feed it a couple of times before wanting to build my levain to bake.

DJB's picture
DJB

The concept of the starter having a growth cycle I get.  Similarly with the increase in volume = starter strength.  Identification of the timing of peak starter activity is all important and this is difficult when one works.   The rubber band technique simply evidences the maximum rise.  That is the peak activity may have arisen hours prior or it may have been 30 minutes ago.

Im in two minds about your feeding cycle.  ie if a starter is dormant then it will be hungry to feed - so feed it and maybe it will take off.  I however, get your concept if the starter is active then feed it to potentiate growth.   My last thought on feeding is does this happen - if it is very active and one feeds it will it get 'lazy' and perhaps 'take it easy' and not develop much.  Its all very much an unknown. 

It would be interesting to get a microbiologist or food scientist response to the growth curve of a starter - I say starter as I think it's important to view it as a colony of yeast/bacteria and enzymes.   Much to learn.  

DJB's picture
DJB

Thanks for the links shall have a read mane.  

I am already a Debra Winks Pineapple Juice convert having previously read her articles on the same - she has a very good handle on the starter subject and impact pH has on constructing a viable /robust starter environment.

 

DJB's picture
DJB

Debra Winks sure has a good handle on the food science stuff.  The science is complex yet she has a very conversational way of getting the important messages across and is so humble in doing so.  A great skill.   I will have to read the articles a few times to get my 'schoolboy' science head around the complexities.  Bread making is indeed a science and an art.   Thanks for the links.

Benito's picture
Benito

Yeast and bacteria are not like people they do not get lazy.  As yeast and bacteria multiple, their numbers grow in exponential fashion so that if you feed them while they are reaching maximum population then they will continue on that exponential grow rate.  If they get very dormant, it will take much longer to get really high numbers and if you want a strong starter it is those really high numbers that you want.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Is more bacterial than yeast. It's definitely under fermented with a tight crumb. All that with a pronounced salt and "vinegar" taste i'm thinking it's down to your starter.

Some healthy feeds, allowing the starter to peak before feeding again and keeping your starter at 77-78°F should help build up a good yeast population.

DJB's picture
DJB

Mini Oven shared some links to Debra Winks articles.  Reading her article has given me a whole new appreciation of the complexity of the processes at hand.  Interesting stuff indeed.  I don't want to go too far down that 'rat hole' other than to gain some insight and hopefully be able to relate the food science stuff to what I am observing and in doing so help eleviate some of the challenges I encounter.  

Nothing is simple ( it wouldn't be fun if it was easy) hydration, feeding times, temperatures, fermenation - I need not go on. 

Im sure you are 100% right that it is my starter that is not up to the 'lifting' required of it.  Yesterday I purchased a small amount of Rye flour to add to the starter - early observations look promising.  Fingers crossed.