February 20, 2019 - 7:52am
Help needed...
Really struggling here in Jamaica to produce a good sourdough.The attached image was produced with:
Levain:
150gmature starter/150g flour(75Ap&75WW)/150gh2o
after levain peaked(7hrs),final mix was:
402gAll Purpose
13gWhole Wheat
25gRye
330gh2o(75%)
108g levain
11gsalt
Autolyse at 5.56pm
mix at 6.35pm
Fridge
fold at 6.55pm
fold at 7.20pm
fold at 8.20pm
fold at 11.36pm
Out of fridge and shapes at 8.00am
finger test was good at 8.15(Jamaica,warm and humid)
into hot oven at 8.30am
anybhelp?
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Bulk ferment in the fridge then just a 15 minute final proof?
What might be better would be to do the bulk ferment at room temperature then shape and final proof in the fridge.
At 25% levain why don't you develop the gluten at room temperature, you'll have 2-4 hours in a warm climate, then leave it till it feels billowy and about 30-40% risen. Then shape and refrigerate for 8-12 hours.
i will reduce Hydration,bulk ferment at room temp,and then shape and proof overnight in the fridge.
difficulty is shaping when “billowy”...
Lowering the hydration will help with shaping. Good idea from FueledByCoffee! If the gluten is developed well that will help with dough handling as well. And what will help further is to chill the dough for about 30 minutes in the fridge before shaping. Lightly flour the bench and do a dough pre-shape. Rest for 20 minutes then lightly flour the top (smooth side) of the dough and flip it over. Then do a second more firm shaping. Other then that it's just practice.
by my calculation your final hydration is 84 percent (384/456). Considering you are in a hot humid environment and you are struggling I would drastically lower your hydration. Start with something around 68 to 70 percent hydration and then work your way up once you master a slightly lower hydration. There is no reason to try to shoot the moon and produce sub par bread. Really wonderful bread can be made a lower hydration and then when you are ready to bump it up you'll have more experience that will help you when you get there.
not sure how you arrive at these ratios?
final mix:
H2O
108g levain(made up of 150 starter/150flour/150h2o)
108 represents 24% of 450g(levain mix)
24% of 150(h2o in levain)=36g of h2o
36g + 330g=366g water.
flour also doesn’t add up.
apologies,I’m obviously missing something,today’s effort told me so!
Hydration = total water / total flour x 100
Total water: 330 + 54 (from the levain) = 384g
Total flour: 402 + 13+ 25 + 54 (from the levain) = 494g
Thanks for taking the time to help,I do appreciate it.
i shall reduce water to 335g(67.81%),let bulk at room temp until 30-40%increase with 2 or 3 folds(should take 3 hrs approx here in jamaica),then shape and leave overnight in the fridge.
sounds feasible?
thanks again!
Something I'd do. Other then that it won't harm to hold some water back, so don't add it all straight away, and slowly increase till 67% hydration if you think it needs it.
Try a 30 minute autolyse at 60% hydration then add the salt and levain and combine by squeezing and folding the dough. At this stage you can slowly add the extra water if you think it needs it. Stop when the dough feels tacky but not too sticky it becomes less manageable.
That's your overall recipe. Now for the autolyse....
Autolyse for 30 minutes.
After which add the levain and salt. This will now make the dough 64% hydration. Run your hand under the cold tap and the squeeze and fold the dough till fully incorporated. You might find it'll be fine without having to add any more water. However have about 30g set to one side and you can slowly add it while your are incorporating the salt and starter. If you add it all then it'll come to about 70% hydration. Go by feel.
p.s. I'd also drop the salt to about 9-10g. 11g is a tad too much.
Sounds good Abe,I’ll hold back 30gh2o and add if required.Will then take notes of exactly how much I added.
One more quick question and I’ll leave you alone:
-After the mix,depending on temp(need to by a thermometer)how long do you anticipate the Bulk Ferment taking,and what am I looking for to avoid over/under bulking.I’ll add two or three folds in the first hour and fridge it for the last 20-30 mins to make shaping easier.
As I said to PhunkyPharoah,May need to get one of you guys down here to give a class!
thanks again!
Ask away :)
I go by look and feel plus I have a good idea how my starter behaves in London temps etc.
You're looking for a good matrix of bubbles within the dough and it'll feel ready. Difficult to describe but it'll look puffy, you'll be able to see some little blisters start to appear on the surface and it'll feel smooth. 25% starter at room temperature (21C) you're looking at about 4-6 hours.
When doing the stretch and folds give the dough time to relax between each set. Don't aim to do two or three. See how it goes. If it needs more then add in another set or two. Don't fight the dough and don't stretch it beyond its extensibility. You'll feel a change in the dough with each set of stretch and folds.
Oops. Thanks for fixing my math. I missed the whole wheat and rye flour in my haste.
on a slightly different note Abe,why make a levain from scratch if I have enough starter to use?
Both a starter and a levain are prefermented flour. Both can be used to leaven bread hence the confusion. It really comes down to how they're used.
You can keep your starter purely as a place to store the yeasts and bacteria. So its non specific for any particular recipe and you'd only keep a little at any one time. Then when it comes to making bread you take off a little starter and use it to build a larger amount of 'starter' designed for the recipe you are doing then you're building a levain.
Or you can feed your starter and take some off to put into the dough. Your starter might be built with the same flour and us the correct hydration or depending on how much you are using it won't make too much of a difference if it wasn't, then you are using starter.
Down to preference really or a recipe might call for 300g bread flour at 100% hydration and you have 50g of 80% hydrated Rye starter then you'd build a levain.
So a few things to consider. I keep little starter and build levains. But if I have recently fed my starter, it's mature and I don't need too much then I might just use starter even it's it's not built exactly to the correct specs.
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A recipe called "The Abe". I can see you put a tad more water into the autolyse and found you didn't need to add any extra when incorporating the salt and levain, keeping the final hydration at 65%. Did you find the dough nice to work with?
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Glad you like it. Very satisfying when all goes well. Enjoy experimenting.
IMG_5151.jpg
Good shaping and oven spring. Did you find the whole procedure ok?
Can't wait for the crumb shot and taste report.
Process was quite simple with reduced hydration.Taste was very good,will send a crumb shot later,I’m on the road now.I even managed to get 18holes of golf in during the process!
will now play around with the hydration level and adding flavors(garlic,rosemary etc)...
and well named....
hester