The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Pâte Fermentée vs Biga vs Poolish

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Pâte Fermentée vs Biga vs Poolish

I understand why preferments are good for artisan bread, and I understand how each of pâte fermentée, biga, and poolish are made.  But I've never found a good explanation about choosing one or the other for a particular bread.  

I have read that poolish is good for extensibility; I have been using that but still not getting much oven spring.

Can anybody please explain the pros and cons of each type of preferment, ie, for what kinds of bread  (or work schedule) you would choose one or the other?

Explanations in the context of 66-75% whole wheat and 75-85% hydration would be especially useful.  

Thanks

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

I have tossed this link on here a few times (always with trepidation) - but I do think it is an interesting read:

https://modernistbread.com/are-biga-poolish-and-sponge-interchangeable/

suave's picture
suave

In practice, with strong North American flours, there's not all that much difference between the three, Modernist Bread is not wrong there.  What rubs me the wrong way is that they do not understand that different preferments come from different baking traditions and seem to refuse to learn anything about it.

David R's picture
David R

... apparent refusal to learn is simply an assertion that, regarding the differences among the various traditions, there is nothing practical to be learned - that the national/regional/customary differences are academic at best and counterproductive at worst.

 

I don't necessarily share that attitude, but it seems to be an attitude that might legitimately exist.

suave's picture
suave

Look, if I want to be practical I can go to a store, where I can select from a variety of imported ryes, as well as breads from local Polish, Jewish, Italian or Middle-Eastern bakeries.  Brownberry, if I want to be super-practical.  But baking at home is more than that.  That is to me it is.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I prefer sailing to travelling by powerboat, partly for the traditional feeling of it.  But in the kitchen, I just want to make good bread as conveniently as possible, tradition mostly be damned.  

I think your point about strong North American flours, mentioned by others, is well taken.  KAF sent me some of their Italian Style Flour by mistake - that might be good for a easier-to-incorporate biga.  

mwilson's picture
mwilson

I share you frustration suave. However I would go further and say that this article from Modernist bread is wrong.

Wrong because essentially they are claiming that if the final loaf has the same composition of ingredients then processing has no bearing.

Using different pre-ferments, altering bulk fermentation time, pre-shape, no pre-shape. All these differences although each small, they all stack up.

Modernist bread have proved they can make consistent loaves with different processing. That is not the same as proving the use of different pre-ferments, i.e. different processing makes no difference. That is a speculation based on their results of what is a very poorly researched and poorly executed investigation.

Take for example a baguette made with North American flour. One includes a pâte fermentée (eg. old lean dough with salt) and another made with a poolish but both have the same total formula. It's is pretty obvious to me that the baguette dough made with a poolish will have better extensibiltity.

Also, I bet they didn't make or process the biga as it would be done in Italy!

 

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

My reading of the Modernist article on preferments was not that processing did not matter, only that they got the same result from pf, biga, or poolish, with everything else held the same (total dough hydration and subsequent processing after mixing).  

How are bigas made in Italy, and how does that differ from what you think they did?  

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Yes it matters and there in lies my point. Using different pre-ferments are different forms of processing. Different ways of transforming flour and water into dough.

A biga in Italy is a specific pre-ferment. Always 1% fresh yeast dosage for an overnight ferment lasting around 18 hours and most importantly held at ~16 degrees C.

In America the biga gets treated like a poolish where the yeast dosage is far lower and variable based on time.

This was discussed recently here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57818/sponge-vs-poolish-vs-biga

It's worth noting that biga and poolish are used with white flour in mind.

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Thank you very much.  That answers the question - in short, the results are virtually the same; choose among the 3 for convenience.  Poolish for easiest mixing, pâte fermentée if you are making the same dough every few days, biga if you want to feel Italian.  

I was surprised (and pleased) to find that there was no difference between the results of a 3 hr and an 8 hr poolish.  

One less variable to worry about.

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

You are welcome. Glad that it helped and what you asked for.  Good bakes!

suave's picture
suave

In my opinion it has more to do tradition and personal preference, than with practical effect on dough.  Biga (as in 50% hydration preferment) is of Italian origin, and is meant for Italian flours which are often weak and have low water absorption.  For example, Caputo Red, commonly available in the US, needs less than 60% hydration, a biga made with it is very manageable.  Pate fermentee is a traditional French preferement, a self-propagating dough, meant for a continuous process.  What we see in the baking books is an approximation of it for a batch process.   Poolish is a newer French preferment and probably appeared about the same time when modern baker's yeast has become reliably available.

More often than not I do't use any of them, instead I mix a simple ~70% overnight sponge, a pate fermentee without salt, one might say.  It's easy to handle, it's easy to judge its readiness,  and it gives me a good feel of how much water I will need for the dough.

old baker's picture
old baker

Pre means before.  Before what?  Proofing, baking?  I make up a batch of dough, then put in a cool spot like my garage (~55F), and let it ferment overnight before shaping, rising, and baking.  Is that not preferment?  The entire batch of dough is prefermented, not just a portion as in a biga or poolish.

David R's picture
David R

that a minority of the dough is fermented in advance, then added to the as-yet-unfermented majority.

old baker's picture
old baker

So why not preferment the entire batch of dough rather than just a portion?  Seems like the preferment is diluted when added to the unfermented dough.

suave's picture
suave

There can be any number of reasons.  You may be planning an enriched bread.  You plan to use a soaker.  You are making a bread that asks for a relatively stiff dough.  You want to use same preferment for two different breads.  You want to make a bread tomorrow but have not quite decided what kind.  You are using an unfamiliar flour and want to see how it behaves.  It may better fit your schedule.  You don't like the taste you get with overnight straight dough.  I am sure there's more.

Colin2's picture
Colin2

If you use a pre-ferment you still have the option, once your main dough is mixed, of retarding the bulk rise or the final rise.  It's not either-or.  Basically, pre-ferments expand your range of fermenting options.  I often make up a 100% poolish (quick, easy, minimal mental effort!), let it rise overnight, and then stick it in the fridge for several days until I get around to taking it out and deciding what to make with it.  The extra days add even more flavor, and there's no danger of over-rising because the poolish is so liquid.

OTOH I use a low-hydration pate fermentee for potato bread, because the potatoes add so much water in the final dough.

 

 

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

definition: a mixture containing flour, liquid, and natural or commercial yeast that is allowed to ferment for some time before being combined with fresh dough to make bread.

Which is why it is not the entire batch left overnight.. and why it has pre in the name

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I think a lot of people, including me ask the same question after reading about preferments - why not just mix the dough and retard the bulk fermentation?

As near as I can tell the answer is convenience.  If you are a home baker with a cool garage or room in the fridge, by all means mix the whole dough and retard.

If you are a commercial baker with a hot shop and limited fridge/retarder space, then the afternoon shift can mix up a poolish that develops flavor overnight at room temp.  Early the next morning, the bakers can make the dough with a long-fermented flavor and have it ready to bake in 2-4 hours.  

I am old and lazy; splitting the job into making the poolish in the evening and finishing the dough in the morning works for me.  

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

Both questions answered in the first sentences of the article in the link:

A preferment is a portion of the dough that’s made in advance of the final dough; it’s already ripe (ready to use) when it’s mixed into the final dough. When a preferment is added to a dough, it not only accelerates fermentation but is itself a partially developed dough, which reduces mixing time

old baker's picture
old baker

Sounds like it's more about tradition and definition than reality.  Ferment part or ferment all before baking.  To me, "pre" means before, not partial.  As a home baker with no schedule to meet, I'll continue to ferment my entire batch of dough overnight rather than only a portion.  It works for me and gives the results I want.

I'd like to see how a dough with a preferment added would compare to an entire batch of dough fermented overnight.

David R's picture
David R

"I'd like to see how a dough with a preferment added would compare to an entire batch of dough fermented overnight."

 

That's just it, you're again making the point that the article makes: When you "play your cards right" in each case, in the end there is no difference. Any one of the methods they named, or your method, when the inputs are modified so they match, give the same result in the end.

 

The methods (both theirs and yours) work fine for just one reason: the users have subjected each method to experiment, and modified each method to give a desired result.

 

We see the truth of the article every day on this discussion board: someone shows up with a recipe that isn't quite working the way they want it to, and someone else shows them how to tweak their recipe for better results.

 

Every poolish recipe can be tweaked to give the exact same bread as if it had been a biga. (And vice versa, and so on for all the possible combinations.)

 

This doesn't mean traditional methods are wrong or misguided or outdated, simply that with appropriate tweaks they all give the exact same loaf of bread.

albacore's picture
albacore

As Michael says, an identical rerun of this discussion

Same question, same comments.

"You are right from your side, I am right from mine" comes to mind.

Lance

David R's picture
David R

...was finding an Italian sentence that suddenly starts with (in English) "Last but not least..." ?

 

We borrowed their words "pizza", "pasta", and many many others - glad they found something worth borrowing from English. ?

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Google provided a pretty good translation, although "chariot"  seems like an odd choice - maybe the preferments are vehicles for making bread.

On interesting aspect is that the Italian article says don't try to make a preferment without a mixer.  Maybe the author was thinking of incorporating a stiff biga into the final dough. 

The article also says that bigas are better for more lactic acid and dough strength (elasticity I think).    Poolishes are better for more acetic acid and extensibility.  Modernist says the end results are the same.  

David R's picture
David R

... can't always be the same, otherwise every loaf of bread would be always equal to all the others.

This controversy is just a conflict between being led by the details and being led by the over-all picture. The detail-oriented say each method is different, and they are right; the big-picture-oriented say all the methods have the same aim and the same function, and they are also right. The big-picture-oriented people can sometimes forget that when you make bread you must make it some specific way - you can't wake up and say "Today I'm going to make bread by no method, since all methods are essentially the same one". And the detail-oriented people can sometimes forget that your customers or guests or family never eat biga or poolish or any of those things - they eat bread, and unless they're as enthusiastic a baker as you are, they don't (and shouldn't) know or care about such things.

albacore's picture
albacore

Michael, I'm surprised at the biga storage temperatures quoted in that article. My understanding is that a biga is stored for 12 - 14 hours at a temperature of 14-16C.

I know there will always be variations, but 16 hrs at 18-20C seems excessive. Surely the biga will be overfermented at those times and temperatures?

Lance

mwilson's picture
mwilson

The timings listed are quite typical from my perspective.

Variations aside, 12-14 hours is definitely too short. From all the Italian literature I've read I never seen anything less than 16 hours specified.

In terms of temperature 20C is definitely a maximum.

A biga like this is meant to ferment until it is exhausted and is why you'd typcially see a malt addition in the final dough, especially if the biga is used at a high percentage.

The specifics of the biga as it known today can be attributed to Maestro Giorilli. Some of his formulas call for the biga to be held up to 24 hours.

Have a look at this formula: Rosetta Soffiata you may be suprised even further.

In the book I have in front of me, Giorillli describes the biga as follows:

100% Flour (W300+, P/L 0.5-0.6)
44% water
1% compressed yeast (fresh)

DDT: 20-21C.

Ferment: 16-20 hours @ 16-20C. | i.e. 20 hours at 16C / 16hrs at 20C, or somewhere in-between. That's how I'm interpreting it.

Or...

The long biga (48hrs). First 24hrs @ 4 C remaining 24hrs @ 18C.

Optimal fermentation should result in a 3:1 lactic to acetic ratio.

Michael

 

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Michael, I stand corrected!

Is there a danger of gluten degradation with what appears to be over fermentation, or does the fact that it's yeast rather than sourdough avoid this?

Lance

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Indeed with yeast the proteolytic potential is very small compared to that of natural leavening (sourdough).

The weakening of gluten by native wheat proteases which help to create extensibility are held back in low hydration doughs such as the biga. Whereas in a poolish these protease enzymes are maximised.

The strength of the flour is important and will determine how long these pre-ferments can last. Using flour that is too weak could be a potential risk factor.