January 27, 2018 - 4:01pm
Extremely Sluggish Starter
I have a starter that is definitely alive, but extremely sluggish. Our house is kept at 68* Fahrenheit. I feed it twice a day with:
40g starter
40g water
20g rye flour
20g bread flour
Everything I look at recommends a much lower inoculation percentage, but mine would be completely inactive. All of my dough is super sluggish as well, even when I proof it in the oven at 80*. Any ideas would be much appreciated!
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How did you make it? How old is it? Have you made bread with it success? Was it always sluggish?
I'd say try a feed at 78F and report back if it's still sluggish or not.
And another thing... You say that many of us do larger feeds and have no issues but you're afraid that your starter wouldn't work at all with a bigger feed. Perhaps it's because others have maintained their starters differently, with bigger feed, that's helped cultivate more yeasts within their starter. Poor feeds and a long time between feeds can tip a starter, which already favours bacteria, to be more bacterial.
How about, just for now, you take a small amount of starter and begin an experiment of feeding it 1:5:5. Keep on feeding it this way for the next few days and only feed again when it's peaked each time. Good feeds, at room temperature and allowing it to peak each time should help encourage the yeasts within the starter. See if it begins to speed up.
Thanks for the quick response!
I've had it for a couple of months. I made it with mainly with rye flour and have kept it up with the rye/bread flour blend. I've made bread (been working on some wet doughs), but they have definitely lacked strength. The last bread I made I even used a 100% inoculation levain to see if that would help and possibly speed up the bulk, but it still took 7 hours with consistent folds until I finally just shaped it and retarded it in the fridge.
I don't really have a good way to keep the starter at 78F right now. I am considering a small in-home proofer. It's on my birthday wish-list :)
I will try the 1:5:5 idea and report back. I'll just have to be patient and see if I can cultivate enough yeast. Thanks for the suggestion!
I’m still new at this and Abe has been my go to mentor on this sourdough thing. But my question is why bread flour for feeding? I only use rye or even a rye/all purpose for feeding. I’m not sure if that has any bearing on it, but I would follow Abe’s recommendation but not use bread flour for the feedings. Like I said, I’m not an expert but don’t think I’ve seen a starter maintenance using bread flour. And I have no scientific knowledge on this but either use just the rye or rye and all purpose. Also are you using water that is either filtered or at least has been sitting out for awhile to lose the chlorine?
Why didn't I think if it? It could be the water and adding wholegrain rye flour can only be good.
Nice one Sharon.
I sometimes use bread flour because that's what I have handy, but maybe I should just switch to all rye for awhile and see if that gets things moving. And I have been meaning to go buy a water filter because I have read that here and there. Thanks for the reminder!
In cooler temps. Try once a day feeding and not upping any ratios unless you warm up the starter. Everything just moves slower and takes longer. You may want to raise the water amount to encourage more fermentation.
The dough will take longer than in summer so just ride with it and add more time to the ferments. :)
With water which has been boiled and left to cool to around 78F?
Not feeding again till it has peaked however long it takes and increasing the ratios?
um ....
i was thinking if warming the water and starter is a problem just be patient with the starter allowing longer times for fermenting and dough rising. I might switch to a high hydration starter, if left on the counter with 68°F. That would be runny and liquid, more of the culture gets used in the dough as the water in the recipe gets cut back or out. Just add more water to the starter now and aim for 200%.
Get a big gallon jar and don't discard. Give it lots of head space and keep it covered. Feeding only when starter is removed every few days. The starter should be constantly effervescent.
So many ideas! I need to make a spreadsheet to keep track of all this and record my results :)
I can try upping the water temperature to around 78F and see if that helps things move along. And maybe I'm just going to have to accept a 8-12 bulk fermentation with folds every 1/2 hour. I think I'm going to get a second starter going and do some experimentation. Thanks for the suggestions!
guess again
if the fermenting is slowed down, then it is logical to guess that the folding will also have longer rests between folds.
if the dough seems to be loosing shape, then fold it. Don't jump in right away with folding and stay relaxed about the whole process.
of course... you could just work on the starter as first suggested but then tuck the starter into your vest pocket and give it body heat. Your movement stir the starter if wet enough and I don't know what mysteries the human heartbeat and magnetic field add to the growth of the living organisms. :)
maybe I should develop a starter-wearing vest to sell :)
the dough does slacken quite a bit in half an hour, but I will make sure to give it plenty of time.
or wear one of those aprons with a front pocket. Then a sweater. :)
Warning: Starter sniffing can be addictive.
Selling of vests (or overcoats) made me think of street watch sellers, only jars of sourdough instead. Row upon row of labeled stashed happy starters.
Anyone remember Lefty, the salesman on Sesame Street? "Wanna buy a ...." My imagination can see this as a gimmic for a conference opening on starters.
This is amazing! :)
I am a great fan of Glenn Snyders’s SF Country SD and bake it often. This weekend was no exception but, viewing the residue of my three months’ old 66% hydration NMNF rye starter seed that I took from the fridge and had hooch slopping around the storage jar, I wondered …. Throwing caution to the wind I mixed the remnants and took 3g for a three stage starter build; the end result was a super-charged starter as a basis for the recipe levain build. From what remained I used 10g to rebuild my NMNF seed to about 120g; this grew at an astonishing rate. (I maintain two starters, so the one in use at any time is aged for at least a month.)
My bread was most satisfactory, though I am not sure if it was as a result of using the very well-matured starter seed or because I used my Kenwood to test Hamelman’s recommended 1000 RPM to develop the dough (three minutes @ speed 1 and one minute @ speed 2) during the mixing phase; maybe a combination outcome? Anyway, my starter seed lives in the fridge, seemed almost definitely beyond redemption, but soon awakened and if a picture tells a story this is mine:
What temperature do you keep your starter at when you are feeding it or building a levain? The picture looks great!
I feed my starter seed and/or build a levain at room temperature; once the former is just past 25% growth after the final/third stage feed, back into the fridge it goes.
and it was taking forever to build a levain from my NMNF starter and then to ferment and proof the dough. I finally got out the heating pad and all was back to normal at 80 F. It is amazing the effects of temperature on the activity of the wee beasties but 68F is almost exactly half as fast to get yeast to reproduce as it is as 80 F. I think it is all a temperature issue.
If you have a light in the oven then put it in there with the light on. If you have a microwave, Heat up some water and leave that in the NM with the levain and dough to keep warm or if you have a desk kamo put the starter or bread under it for stay warm and all will be well. There are lots of ways to keep the wee beasties warm if you think about it.
I think temperature is the main factor. I'm going to mess around a bit and see what method will give me the most consistent temperature.
The Q10 rule for biological (chemical) reactions states that for every increase in temp of 10 C there is a doubling of the rate of reaction. You went from 20 C to almost 27 C, so the time would almost halve. Your observation is not surprising and would be expected.
I have never been able to figure out my starter, so I would someone to tell me once and for all if I am wrong. I do not know which book or website I got it from, but I was always told I had a 100% hydration starter. I feed 50 grams of my starter 100 grams of water and 100 grams of flour. It is like a wet biscuit dough, very active and I use only whole grain flour except for my einkorn starter. If it is not 100% hydration, can someone let me know what it is?
Also, when trying to convert to another hydration for a recipe, I always notice everyone mentions the percentage or amounts of water and flour for a particular hydration. However, they never mention the amount of starter used? Can someone let me know why and much it needs to be? Thanks so much!
Equal weight flour to water = 100% hydration
Hydration percentage of a dough is worked out from the total flour and water including the starter.
Total Water Weight / Total Flour Weight X 100
Hope this helps.