Retarded/Delayed fermentation in the fridge....
I’ve been learning to maker Artisan sourdough bread for the last 6 years just as a hobby, after retiring from working for many years. 6 years ago on this website I asked the question... “what do you all mean when you use the term bakers percentage?”. Someone sent me a link to a video on StellaCulinary.com about the bakers percentage. Understanding that was a leap forward in my bread making hobby. Over the next few weeks I devoured all of the bread content on that website... including Debra Wink’s info from this website.
Over those 6 years I’ve casually studied almost all steps of bread making and now I really lean toward preferments and delayed fermentation to slow things down as much as possible. My intent originally was to be able to do things whenever I wanted too, more flexibility of my time. Then I discovered that I got more complex flavors in my bread, so I’ve become a low and slow bread maker... low starter content and long fermentation processes, with delayed fermentation in the fridge.
Recently I stumbled across an article about retarded/delayed cold fermentation in the fridge that said... yeast goes dormant when it’s in a under 40°F environment. The article indicated that your final shaped dough will not rise when it’s in the fridge but the advantage is that the enzyme activity is not disrupted at all by the below 40°F temperature and it continues doing its thing.
I had a final shaped batch of dough in my banneton, in the fridge, when I read that article and I knew I never got any rise while my dough was in the fridge during the overnight cold fermentation process, but I also knew my bread tasted better when I left it in the fridge for long periods of time. The next day when I took my dough out of the fridge after 12 hours I reconfirmed what I thought I knew... no rise at all.
So then I got to thinking that at some point after final shaping my dough MUST final proof until it is about 1.5 times bigger than it was when I placed in the banneton after final shaping, whether that happens before or after it comes out of the fridge.?
If you put your final shaped dough in a banneton, wrap it, and then it goes directly into the fridge at 38°F and your yeast goes to sleep... you get no rise. It will come out of the fridge 12/18/24 hours later the same size it was when you put it in there... no rise.
What confuses me is comments I see about people doing their final shaping then putting their dough in a banneton, putting it in the fridge for delayed fermentation and then taking it out of the fridge cold, putting it in a cold Dutch Oven and putting it into a cold unpreheated oven. Then they claim they got good ovenspring.? Is that really possible? Are they putting it into a dedicated fridge that’s set at a higher temperature to slow down the yeast but not put it to sleep?
Anyway... lately I’ve been leaving my final shaped dough out on my counter top at about 70°F until the final proofing is @bout 80% of the way along, judging that by the increase in the size of the dough. Then I put it in the fridge until I’m ready to bake it after 12/18/24 hours. The loaf I did yesterday came out of the fridge after 12 hours and I let it sit to allow it to warm up enough to reactivate the yeast so it will finish my final proofing step. After 1 hour I did the poke test to see where my final proofing was and it was still under proofed. I continued doing the poke test until it sprung back half way and then I got it ready to bake. I brushed off all of the rice flour on the dough from the banneton and then used that brush to paint my dough with water... to create blisters. Then I scored it and slipped it in the DO using parchment paper as a sling.
I would be pleased to start a discussion about proofing, under proofing, yeast sleeping and this entire topic.
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isn't at my house :) My SD breads regularly rise in the fridge and my temp in the main fridge where I set the banneton is 34 degrees F. I take exception to them saying the yeast is asleep. I have no idea what test they are doing or what varieties of yeasts they are using or what I have going on in my kitchen but I know that many many TFLers do as I do and give almost no time to the shaped loaf before retarding and then as you say bake cold . The proof is in the pictures. The rare time I give longer to a shaped loaf before retard is as I did the other night with my banana rye bread. I had read extensively on TFL of other experiments with large amounts of banana in the loaf and compound that with the rye and I gave this bread 4 hrs in a chilly mud room before I put it in my 34 degree fridge. Pics show the amazing spring and ears and crumb. I have been baking all our bread since 1976 or so and SD almost exclusively for 10 years or so. Nothing surprises me when I open a post on TFL there is the broad range of ideas and experiences shared here and much to learn. Will look forward to other responses.
SOURCE: Reinhart, Peter (2010-10-13). Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day: Fast and Easy Recipes for World-Class Breads (Kindle Locations 226-235). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
I take advantage of a number of factors that aren’t always available to commercial bakeries: refrigeration, small batches, and high hydration. For the most part, bakeries don’t have enough room to hold large batches of dough overnight, so they use sponges or other pre-ferments to build flavor. But home bakers can, so most of the recipes in this book call for making a complete, single-mix dough, then using the refrigerator to retard the fermentation process. This gives enzymes and microorganisms ample time to work on the molecules in the dough and develop the flavor. Once the dough is mixed, in most cases it’s quickly retarded to slow down activity of the yeast. One of the differences between this method and those I’ve used in previous books is that the recipes often call for lukewarm water (about 95°F or 35°C) rather than water at room temperature. This allows the yeast a chance to wake up and begin fermenting the dough as it cools down, until the yeast eventually goes dormant when the temperature of the dough falls below 40°F (4°C). A lot of the flavor transformation in the dough takes place during the dormant stage, because the starch enzymes are still at work even while the yeast goes to sleep.
My wife gave me a copy of Hertzberg & Francois' book, "The New Artisan Bread in Five minutes a Day" and I'm using their method. Their idea is to make a big batch of dough, let it rise for a couple of hours at room temp, then put it (covered) in the fridge where it can be stored for up to 14 days. For a quick bake of a couple of loaves, remove an appropriate amount of the dough and return the remaining to the fridge. That provides the means to "do things whenever I wanted too, more flexibility of my time." After the initial, room-temp rise, the dough doesn't rise in the fridge. After shaping, the loaves need to proof for an hour or two, depending on the size of the loaf.
I can't say if the yeast is dead, dormant, or active. But it works for me. My wife likes this recipe better that all the others I've tried.
I'll be using the last 500 grams to make a couple of small baguettes tonight after mixing the dough about 9-10 days ago. The result is supposed to get better the longer the dough rests in the fridge, as it "sours" over time. The method is simple, quick, and yields good results. What's not to like?
yeast doesn't "die" until it reaches 130F. the process of you warming up to room temp is no different than when it is in the oven... albeit much faster. yeast has no problem reactivating in the oven and releasing its CO2 to rise and die.
personally, i don't bake after room temp or in a cold oven, but for science! i would be interested to compare two of my loaves. i would hypothesize that the crust would carmelize faster on cold dough vs room temp dough. i would also expect a flatter dough baking in a cold
but as trailrunner notes, there is plenty of rise left in the shaped dough when it's in the fridge after bulk fermentation at room temp. in fact, i would actually be concerned if my dough DIDN'T rise when i take it in the fridge.
I never get any rise in my dough when it’s in the fridge at 38°F.? None, not even a 1/2” on dough that’s 600g of flour that’s 65% to 80% hydration. It’s really worth it to me though because of what Peter Reinhart says above about the enzyme activity going on in the cold fermentation process... even though the yeast is sleeping and not producing Co2 to rise my dough.
take a nap, consider this. For the first period of retardation, the dough will not immediately become 38dF or whatever. The larger the bulk placed into retard, the longer before the core and the entirety of that bulk cools down to 38dF. Even smaller or thinner loads of dough will not drop their average temp for a while. And all that time above 40dF, the yeast will be working, ever more slowly - but still active.
As Mr. Reinhart states "...until the yeast eventually goes dormant when the temperature of the dough falls below 40°F (4°C)".
One wouldn't put a 20lb. turkey into the refrigerator and expect it to drop to 38dF instantly, or do the reverse at ambient room temperature. No difference with dough.
However... the other day I mixed together a batch of dough that had 600g flour and 70% hydration. After it passed the window pane test I bulk fermented it on the counter top at 70°F, which took about 5 hours. Then I degassed it gently, preshaped it, bench rested it for 20 minutes, and then final shaped it into a boule. I put it in my banneton and covered the banneton with a shower cap and started the final proofing there on the counter top. After 2 hours it had risen some but not 1.5 times the size it was when I put it in the banneton. I did a poke test and the dent sprang right back, under proofed. It was bed time, I put it in the fridge. The next day I took it out of the fridge after 12 hours and it hadn’t risen at all over those twelve hours, based on the mark I put on my banneton. I gave the dough an hour to warm up before doing a poke test, under proofed. I finally got a good poke test after 2 hours and baked the dough then. I’ve never tried baking right out of the fridge or in a cold DO or oven though. Those methods never made sense in my brain to be honest with you.?.
the dough is when it goes into the fridge. I bulk at around 82F and the dough is still quite warm after I divide and shape at a room temp of 73F. My dough goes directly into a 36-37F fridge after shaping. It takes a while for the dough to cool down to the fridge temperature and in the meantime, it rises. The next morning, the dough shows some rise, not huge but some. Letting the dough warm up on the counter resulted in flat loaves for me. I did do a test of cold loaves into a cold pot/cold oven, cole pot/hot oven and hot pot/ hot oven and preferred the results of the latter.
Oh and I don’t do the finger test on cold dough. I just bake right out of the fridge. No complaints about my oven spring.
I think I’ll try final proofing on the counter top until it’s about 80% final proofed. Then put it in the fridge overnight and try baking it cold out of the fridge in a preheated Dutch Oven or on a baking stone with a upside down stainless steel mixing bowl over it to trap the steam. If I get good ovenspring I’ll be convinced. I’ve been very hesitant to try it after not final proofing on the counter top first because I never get a rise in the fridge.
Experimentation is pure joy! And you learn something new guaranteed!
I was getting a sourdough loaf going on a Tuesday after doing a 3-stage build of my starter, so it was very active when I mixed up the loaf. I bulk fermented for about 2 hours on the countertop, then put in the fridge until the next day. In the morning my wife informed me that our planned activities for the day would preclude any baking.
I work nights Wed-Sun, and so it sat... and sat... and sat. I kept checking on it daily to make sure elasticity, extensibility, and aroma were still what I wanted. After the first 48 hours, at the longest, I'm pretty sure the whole mass had equalized at the fridge temp of 39F, but there was measurable rising evident in the bowl every day. In fact, I did a few stretch-and-folds Saturday afternoon just to keep it from climbing out of the bowl.
When I finally got to baking it on Monday afternoon, it actually came out great - still had nice oven spring and the flavor was awesome.
--Mike
You did pretty much what Hertzberg & Francois call for in their book. That is, store the dough in the fridge for up to 14 days and use what you need each day. I just made two baguettes last night with the remaining stored dough after about 10 days. Came out great.
The long retard works well. But what I was getting at was the fact that my yeast (culture) never "slept." I was seeing rising the whole time it was in the fridge.
Have you seen that Hertzberg and Francois released a revised edition? Basically the same book, but they've tweaked some of the recipe ratios, and they're now using much less commercial yeast.
--Mike
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I preheated my oven and Dutch Oven to 475°F and put the dough in the DO right out of the fridge, seam side up. That was my first time ever of baking cold dough right out of the fridge that had very little of a rise after final shaping it. What I’m surprised at is the good ovenspring I got after my dough only rose about 1” after final shaping and all of that was before it went in the fridge.
The fact that I didn’t get any rise in 18 hours while my dough was in the fridge... confirms for me Peter Reinhart’s statement that your yeast goes to sleep when it’s temperature drops under 40°F. My delayed fermented dough in the fridge has never risen for me. I’m really confused to see you guys saying your dough continues to rise in your fridges. Perplexed I tell you.
Here’s pictures and a detailed explanation of the whole process. You will see...very little rise after final shaping both out of the fridge and in it, and I still got a good ovenspring.?.
https://app.box.com/s/xgzbn23lpbtmgkxv8z5ko6zo98ie89dh
even at 35F. If I let it sit at room temperature for an hour after feeding, and then refrigerate it, it will take about a week to peak and then gradually collapse over the next week. The hydration level is about 60-65% with a blend of bread flour, whole wheat flour, and whole rye flour.
A 12-18 hour retard wouldn't show appreciable expansion but the yeast is definitely at work.
I sometimes retard yeasted cinnamon rolls overnight and they come close to doubling during that time.
Paul
I often put it in the fridge immediately after feeding. Like pmcools, it peaks in about a week, often popping the top off the its container.
I see some rise on my retarded loaves. In some cases I’ve had to reduce my bulk fermentation to avoid overproofing during an overnight retard. Fermentation produces heat in addition to gases.
With sourdough, everyone’s experience is different. Do what works for you.
Mike, I AM referring to the "New" version if their book. I should have included that. As for the dough rising, mine tries to climb out of the bowl on the first (room temp) rise. I slap it down to make it behave, then refrigerate it. The current batch is in the fridge and hasn't risen any.
Also, the two loaves I baked a couple of days ago with the last of the previous batch were better than any before that. Aging does add to the flavor, as expected.
i baked 1 loaf yesterday from the 1800 grams of dough that I made in this batch, after it had been in the fridge for 18 hours. I left this loaf in the fridge for another 12 hours, 30 hours total. Still no rise in the fridge at all. I wanted to see what the extended enzyme activity would do to the taste of my loaf. I haven’t sliced it yet so that curiosity will have to wait until it’s time to slice it.
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I would be soooo curious and excited to actually get some starter from someone who has one where the "continuous/retarded/fridge method" dough rises while in the fridge. I would love to find out if adding it could change the way mine behaves. I love the way this method works, and it's already great and wonderful for my needs. But....the chemistry buff in me is soooo curious to see if it is a quality of a local yeast that could be introduced into my own. Any takers out there?
I wouldn't mind reviving this thread.
I never get any rise in my fridge either. My method is to bulk ferment for 4 hours at about 28C in my oven then preshape and shape and then final proof in the bannetons for 2-3 hours (usually 3) at about 22C then into the fridge at about 4pm for 13 hours or so until I bake the next morning at about 5am. I bake with a hot Combo Cooker and the dough is straight from the fridge
I am also absolutely perplexed that people put their dough in the fridge immediately after their final shaping (like the Kirsten? from Full Proof Baking. Mine would not be risen enough. I think Trevor Wilson's method calls for a longer final proof in the banneton - but even he doesn't seem to do it as long as I would normally given nothing much happens in my fridge.
I'm thinking maybe I could do it that way if I did say a 6 hour bulk and was more careful not to deflate the dough when I shaped but I basically stretch and fold to do the preshape and again for the final shape so that's going to deflate things a little without being too rough.
I do get reasonable oven spring but I might say that my loaves are not as high as some peoples. They are certainly not pancakes though and nothing to be ashamed of. I use 80% hydration dough and my flours are 70% 13.5% protein bread flour, 10% Durum Semolina, 15% Wholemeal Wheat and 5% Rye - so a reasonable proportion of non bread flour. The thing is even if I get tension on the dough in the final shaping, 3 hours of final proofing is going to cause it to go pretty slack. Think about how dough goes slack in 15 minutes in the preshape. The final shape is not going to work for 3 hours and then for a retard in the fridge for 12 or so hours. I defy anyone to do a preshape and then expect their final shape to hold tension for 15 hours although I guess the banneton helps but then what really is making the dough hold its shape the tension or the banneton :-)
I bake straight from the fridge so at least the dough is chilled and it keeps it shape better than if it's warm because it has kind of half set.
How does this fare for the crumb?
I see no rise in some things until I tightly seal the container. Then it explodes.
Things that stop a fridge rise are:
Bad seal
Too much salt vs yeast amount
Too much salt vs autolyse length
Not enough or not well developed starter.
Tough under-hydrated dough
Underworked structureless dough ( which may still rise but collapse readily or appear to breathe and never really rise).
If your dough is glossy and velvety its overworked and wont rise. May still oven spring.
I'm having trouble adding a comment to the photo - but that's the crumb. I use 2% salt, 150g prefermented flour per 1000g total flour (ie. 300g 100% hydration starter). Autolyse is 40 minutes (without salt or starter).