The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Panettone Crumb

Evrenbingol's picture
Evrenbingol

Panettone Crumb

Hi I have posted on this site before regarding a panettone and its "open" crumb. 

The picture above is my latest bake. I am really not satisfied with the crumb. I really want it to be a lot more open. 

Questions for all the bread experts out there.
1) If you develop gluten to full extend does water guarantee extensibility for panettone?
2 ) Do people autolyse panettone dough?
3) Should one use a strong flour to get the random and open crumb for a such rich dough like this.For a regular artisan sourdough at around %75-80 hydration I do not use a strong bread flour to get random and large crumbs.

4) Is using an AP flour a waste of time?

5) Do you develop the first dough to full maturity and or develop it to full maturity during the second dough?

6) Do you steam the oven and would it have a  lot of affect on a rich dough. I know how it affect say a baguette and country?

 

I am going to try all of these suggestions anyway to see for myself but I would like some input from the experts. 


Thank you so much?

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I have a few thoughts pulled together from multiple posts that have got me thinking about pannetone. It may seem like a loosely connected train of barely related ideas because that is what it is. I hope it will lead to an "A HA" moment.

First of all is just my opinion. I think the texture of the crumb (the featheriness,if you will) is what is the most important feature of pannetone and holes should be moderate. I think your holes are absolutely fine but what is the texture like? I think texture is the key.

Which brings me to high protein flour. I usually think of high protein flour as causing chewy crumb and not much featheriness. And yet, authentic pannetone recipes specify high protein flour. Why? Keep the ideal texture of featheriness in mind. Good pannetone IS feathery but it is also a little ....spongey (best word I can think of) but not tough. Alost like a weakened form of tough or chewy high protein crumb.

Which brings me to biga. I haven't started my research on this yet, but recently Abelbreadgallery posted on making a 90% biga bread. It was a wonderful post.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54556/90-biga-loaf-italian-method

He talks of the necessity of using a high protein flour for a 90% biga loaf as a lower protein flour would deteriorate  too much to still have structure. Hmmm....... could the texture seen in a good pannetone actually be a controlled,deteriorated protein structure? Does that explain how the pannetone structure is feathery as well as spongey? There are long rises with highly active leavening. It would make sense.

That was as far as I got. So is classic pannetone made with biga? Does the method for classic pannetone (no matter the leavening-biga or more liquid mother) actually deteriorate soe of the protein structure in the long fermentation?

My 2 cents. Not crazy-just bread obsessed!

Evrenbingol's picture
Evrenbingol

Texture was great. It was feathery and you could easily pull it like a cotton candy with a bit of tension. 
I am after this sort of texture. https://www.thisisfromroy.com/ 

At this point I guess it is an obsession and the fact that I see  Roy's panettone sort of texture can be achieved even if that means it is not panettone anymore, haha. 


I think strong flour makes a lot of sense for the biga. And for the first dough maybe a mix of strong and AP and for the second dough just AP. i am just brain storming. The post on biga is interesting. 

I think I am going to change the way I do it and try a standard country dough like recipe.
I am going to create a 65% hydration dough with 10% liquid started( at 100% hydration) and add egg yolks which is %50 water.. So 13% egg yolks gives me 6.5/7 % hydration which brings to hydration to 72.5 ish. And I ll add sugar and salt  and finally butter(soft very soft butter).  And do a bunch of  S&F and incorporate the candied oranges and raisin during S&F.  I am not going to have second dough. 

Also maybe autolyse the dough before before adding all this with just 65% water.


Would  making an emulsion(sort of like hollandaise) of yolks and butter and sugar and salt and add it to the dough makes any sense? 
So many things to try so little time. 

Thanks for the links and the input. 

Xaimerafiki's picture
Xaimerafiki

I am interested to see how you progressed with this idea of yours, is no secondo impasto, and your quest for a super open crumb. Got any more pics?

pmccool's picture
pmccool

You'll see that the crumb of your panettone is at the outer limits in terms of openness.  I'd say you've done a spectacular job with this very challenging bread. 

As clazar notes, the crumb should be characterized by a feathery or shreddable texture.  Think pan de mie, for instance.  Or cotton candy that has some substance.  

As to your questions, mwilson's posts on the subject, plus his advice for other aspiring panettone bakers, should give you some excellent pointers. 

Paul

Evrenbingol's picture
Evrenbingol

Thank you sir.

People who tried the bread/panettone loved it and but I guess at this point it is more of an obsession to push limits. To what extend, I don't know.
But If I finds something more challenging I just want to try it. 
So when I see this guy's panettones https://www.thisisfromroy.com/

, I am like, I have to bake 1000s more. 

Thank you so much for your input and I ll read mwilsons posts. 

Evren

 

inumeridiieri's picture
inumeridiieri

This panettone  https://www.thisisfromroy.com/ is atypycal. 

The upper glaze favors an open structure.

Gaetano

JennyPn's picture
JennyPn

Hi! I was wondering if there was an update on your pannetone formula, I am also obsessed with this is from Roy’s open crumb, it’s amazing 

Hope your bake is going well

Addykaid's picture
Addykaid

To get a lot more open crumb on enriched dough like panettone is to reduce the egg yolks, and increase the water a little bit, but increasing the water depends on how much butter you use, because butter usually contains water from 15% to 20%. If you send me the recipe I will tweak it for you.

Dkhripkova's picture
Dkhripkova

Hello, I would love to hear more about the development of the “stringy” crumb. I use Cresci panettone moderno, and it comes out perfectly, but it feels like the dough is almost too light, and does not pull as much as the store bought ones. Are you familiar with the recipe? If not, I can send. Thank you, and sorry to get in :)

Addykaid's picture
Addykaid

Not familiar with that recipe, but i will give you this recipe: This will make to panettones 1000g each

First Dough:

- 400g Good quality flour with strength between 350 and 400

- 200g Water.

- 100g Egg yolks.

- 120g Butter. "Very Soft, but not melted"

- 125g Sugar.

- 130g Natural yeast.

Second Dough:

- 100g Flour.

- 100 Egg yolks.

- 165g Butter "Very soft, but not melted"

- 15g Melted butter.

- 105g Sugar.

- 25g Honey.

- 3g Barely Malt syrup,

- 6.5 Salt.

- Panettone Aroma (your Choice)

- 1/2 Vanilla Bean, or extract.

- Mandarin paste "optional", but i recommend for good taste.

- 200g Raisins.

- 200g Candied Orange.

 

Now, if you already have a solid sourdough, then make sure when you do the 3 refreshments, bath it in a water and sugar before the first refreshment. Put a lot of sugar unlike what you have been told, for example 20g-30g of sugar in 500g of water, and make sure its dissolved.  And make sure each refreshment it must be fully ripe doubling or tripling that will take 4 hours at 84 degrees Fahrenheit, because its winter time.

Now, if you are converting Liquid yeast to Solid: once you convert from liquid to solid do the bath i told you above, and refresh it "4" times this time not "3" to strengthen it,

Refreshments at 1:1: at 40% water, it will be kind of stiff, you can use pasta roller to make it easy for you, or leave it covered for 10 minutes and the knead. You can repeat the 10 minutes couple of times if you want.

Rasin: If soaked, make sure its dried really good, because will contain a lot of water in it.

First dough:

- Dissolve water and sugar with 25g of egg yolk.

- Add the mixture and flour in the mixer and mix for 10 to 15 minutes until the dough looks and feel strong by pulling it and stretching it. 

- Add the yeast broken to pieces, and the rest of egg yolks in three stages, about 10 minutes.

- Check the gluten is developed and do the veil test, if everything looks good then Add the butter in three stages 10 minutes.

- leave it for 5 minutes on lightly oiled or buttered surface, then stretch and fold, then roll it to a ball and Proof for 10-12 hours at 78-79 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

Second dough:

- Mix the first dough - flour - Malt for 15 minutes at least.

- Slowly add sugar until absorption. 5 to 7 minutes

- Add half egg yolks - Flavorings.

- Add Salt and the rest of egg yolks.

- Add the butter in 3 three stages.

- Add the melted butter for 1 minute and then add the raisins and candied orange.

 

Let it rest covered for 30 minutes then stretch and fold, leave it for another 30 minutes, then stretch and fold, and leave it on oiled or buttered surface for 45 minutes. Wight and roll each piece lightly then let it rest for 20 minutes and roll again nice and tight ball and put it in the mould for 5 to 6 hours, it could take less if the yeast is good and healthy, then bake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dkhripkova's picture
Dkhripkova

Interesting. The proportions are very close to mine. The water is exact % to flour, but yours is added all in the first dough (mine is split, and actually added in the second dough to adjust the consistency). However, mine does have more egg yolks (like you were saying), mine is 46% of the flour weight, and yours is 40%. 

I do have more questions, if you don't mind:

- Does orange paste affect the chemistry of the dough? I added it once, and the dough never rose in the mold. It could be differs reasons, but...

- Time vs. dough behavior - my first dough is more than tippled usually at 8-9 hours (usually at least 4 times the volume by 8 hours). Should one give more time, 10-12 hours like everyone recommends, or go with it when it's at the X volume?

- Achieving a "dome" - I put about a quarter of hight of the mold of dough into the mold (last time I actually found how to calculate how much should go into each size mold), then I wait till it gets to the top, and then bake. I don't achieve a good oven spring though, it does rise, but not as much as I'd like it. I am thinking maybe the temperature needs to be higher so it rises quicker before the top sets. I don't think it's lack of gluten at that point, as (going to the very first point), I don't see the crumb stretch (actually, it does, but not as much as I want). 

THANK YOU, and again, please let me know if it's too many questions, I really have no one to talk about it :)

Addykaid's picture
Addykaid

- Does orange paste affect the chemistry of the dough? I added it once, and the dough never rose in the mold. It could be differs reasons, but...

It shouldn't at all, I puree alltogether the following:  candied orange, candied citron, candied lemon, candied melon, orange peel, lemon peel, candied bergamot, candied apricot, orange blossom water, brandy, water, egg marsala wine, sugar, honey, vanilla bean, clove, cinnamon, sweet almond extract, and glucose syrup. And then I add Mandarin paste without affecting the dough or the yeast, that's why i stress to have a very strong healthy natural yeast. If you decide to add this aroma let me know and i will send you the recipe for that, the taste is AMAZING.

- Time vs. dough behavior - my first dough is more than tippled usually at 8-9 hours (usually at least 4 times the volume by 8 hours). Should one give more time, 10-12 hours like everyone recommends, or go with it when it's at the X volume?

It should only nearly triple no more than that, that's over proofing, that will affect the texture.The best aim would be between doubling and almost tripling, because remember we're resting it for 2 hours before putting it in the mold, that's why you were having problem with the dough rising in the mold. I believe the reason yours tripled in 8-9 hours is probably because the temperature was too high, set the proofing temperature for the first dough if you can between 77 to 79 degrees Fahrenheit, but if it rises in 8 - 9 hours that's fine its better than having it over proof. But for the second proof with the mold it must be at 85-86 degrees Fahrenheit it should take about 4-6 hours.

- Achieving a "dome" - I put about a quarter of hight of the mold of dough into the mold (last time I actually found how to calculate how much should go into each size mold), then I wait till it gets to the top, and then bake. I don't achieve a good oven spring though, it does rise, but not as much as I'd like it. I am thinking maybe the temperature needs to be higher so it rises quicker before the top sets. I don't think it's lack of gluten at that point, as (going to the very first point), I don't see the crumb stretch (actually, it does, but not as much as I want).

I like to put a glaze on top of the panettone, it contributes to better development of the dough, because it acts as beerier to trap some humidity. Now lets talk about how much dough should go into the mold if you're using glaze or not. 

If you're putting glaze, and the mold is for 500gr for example, put exactly 500g or up to 505g and let it rise until you reach 1 and 1/2 inches BEFORE the edge, put the glaze and then bake.

If no glaze then you should add 10% more so it would be 550g, and let let it rise almost to the edge don't pass the edge then bake. 

Baking: Home regular oven, Bake at 302 degrees Fahrenheit for 15 minutes and then 320 degrees Fahrenheit. The interior temperature can be between 197.5 - 201 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

p.s. I forgot to tell you, once the first dough proof and triples, deflate it and put it in the fridge for 1 hour to reduce the temperature.

Don't worry, ask any questions you have in mind.

 

Dkhripkova's picture
Dkhripkova

Wow, amazing insight! I am itching to go bake again :) I don't have a proofing drawer, so, it's the oven with the light on, and when I measured, it is at ~85 degrees, but it is after it stays on for a while. Usually the first dough goes in when the light was off, and then i switch it on, so, I am sure it takes a some time to heat up. Here are some pictures of the last batch, by the way. 

Addykaid's picture
Addykaid

I can’t see the picture 

Dkhripkova's picture
Dkhripkova

Dkhripkova's picture
Dkhripkova

Addykaid's picture
Addykaid

Here is the picture i finally found it.

 

Panettone-dream's picture
Panettone-dream

@addykaid, Thank you for sharing your recipe and all the valuable tips. I have a few more questions for you!

1. Flour- What is the recommended strength in protein percentage? I heard we have to stay over 15.5% (meaning a very high protein flour). Do we have to use 00 flour? I have used a 11.9% protein "00" flour from Italy and with additional gluten to bring it over 15.5%. Any adjustment for altitude, i am at 5400ft above sea level. 

2. Over-proofing: During the first rise, once the volume goes from 1X to ~3X, how long can you hold it in the fridge? last couple of times it over-proofed resulting in the crumb structure collapsing.

3. Kneading: Is the veil/window pane test the only way to determine how much to knead? I am worried about dough temperature. Not sure if I am under kneading or over heating the dough. Do we really need a diving arm mixer? What do you recommend?

4. Seeing a lot of recipes with cream or milk solids, is that needed? Roy's has no milk in the classic version.

5. Baking: you are recommending 302F (20 minutes) to 320F rest of the way? contrary to starting at 380F and dropping to 320F. 

6. Panettone Aroma: Can you please share your panettone aroma recipe?

 

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

TasosK's picture
TasosK

Hello there.

Thank you for the info. here is my first attempt and i want to know your comments.

the recipe is from Andrea Tortora and i used robin hood ap flour with 13,2 protein. Can i have more open crumb and oven spring  with this flour or is waste of time.

Thanks a lot

TasosK's picture
TasosK

Hello there.

Thank you for the info. here is my first attempt and i want to know your comments.

the recipe is from Andrea Tortora and i used robin hood ap flour with 13,2 protein. Can i have more open crumb and oven spring  with this flour or is waste of time.

Thanks a lot