The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Bulk Fermentation - When is it "done"?

the_partisan's picture
the_partisan

Bulk Fermentation - When is it "done"?

How can you tell when bulk fermentation is done? I haven't been able to find anything conclusive regarding this. Most recipes give a time window, but I have no idea what this is based off. How much the dough has risen seems to be a measuring point, but then again I believe this depends on how often you fold? What is the end goal for bulk fermentation phase?

Ken Forkish for example says "dough has tripled", but I've seen some recipes where only 20-30% rise is expected.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I believe the fermentation stage is for the yeast to eat its way through the available 'food' and turn it into whatever it produces. One of these things is gas, so the presence of bubbles in the dough is a good sign of it being 'done'. I like to ferment my dough in clear containers so I can look at the sides and bottom of the dough and check for these holes. Volume is another guide but it depends on the hydration, flour blend, add-ins, etc. Some dough just doesn't increase the way others do. The dough should have a dome and be smooth and shiny on the surface. If it's fairly high hydration it will jiggle when you shake the container, and probably 'burp' and deflate when you dump it out onto the work surface. But again, if it's lower hydration or has a lot of enrichment (dairy, fats, sugars) it will feel and look different.

The other thing that I find difficult to judge is when to put dough into the fridge to finish bulk fermenting. Sourdoughs need longer at room temperature than doughs made with dry yeast, and rye doughs are a whole different ballgame. A dough with lower inoculation (smaller percentage of starter to flour) can sit overnight at room temperature (depending on the time of year and resulting room temperature) while one with higher inoculation might turn to soup. Some doughs do fine if they rise and then collapse, and you do a little folding or kneading after this stage.

But I'm in danger of not helping here, right? :)

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

you (and the rest of us!) would like a "conclusive answer", and there really isn't one.  The level of "done" is going to vary based on dough temperature, room temperature, flours, hydration, amount and type of yeast, elevation, desired final crumb, recipe, adders, and the mood of the "dough pixies" (I'm sure they exist - and they're not always friendly...)

My understanding agrees with what Lazy Loafer stated, that "fermentation" is the process of the yeast basically eating through the sugars in the flour, and it is "done" when the sugars in the flour run out.  Now - you don't want to get anywhere near that point in your dough, since that would mean that there's nothing left to create a rise after shaping, or that final oven spring.  What you really want to get to is the point where the yeast have worked their way through a portion of the closest "food", have created a mass of CO2 bubbles throughout the dough, and the dough is feeling quite airy and malleable.  The pre-shape / shaping process should break up the larger bubbles, and redistribute the yeast and flour so that they have access to the sugars that were farther away during the initial ferment.  The "proof" rise is the result of this next round of feeding / gas producing being held in by the "skin" created during the shape and supported by the gluten network that you have created.  This is just my understanding, though, so it might be out to lunch!

You are correct that the stretch-and-fold will impede the visual appearance of volume increase of the dough, and it will somewhat deflate any bubbles developing early (while helping to create, shape, and strengthen the supporting gluten structure).  What many folks do is take a small bit of the dough and place it in to a small, straight-sided container marked with volume units and keep it beside the dough (a graduated cylinder is ideal - a well marked shot glass works well, too) so that they can watch for the increase in an untouched bit of the dough.  This is the easiest way to watch for a recommended volume increase (such as 30% - commonly for a high percentage of whole grains or lower gluten flours - or a doubling - commonly for a higher percentage of higher gluten flours and higher amounts of yeast).  For recipes that specify a time, I would compare it to the timing indicated in here and assume it is just a rough general guideline: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5381/sourdough-rise-time-table

Personally, I follow Lazy Loafer's lead in fermenting in a clear container, and I watch for a well developed pattern of bubbles to be visible on the sides and bottom of the dough.  My container has straight sides, so I can also get a pretty good idea of volume change even with the folding.  I find the "poke test" to be useful, too, the same as with final proof.

The most "conclusive" answer that I have found is to keep watching, and especially feeling your dough, and do some experimenting with taking it over where you feel that it should be done.  There really isn't anything better than experience in seeing and feeling where the change-over is, and to recognize the signs that it is getting close.  I still have a lot of learning to do on this, too, and can end up with some wildly bad guesses (this week I had a "3-bears" bake, with one under-fermented, one over-fermented, and one just about right...) but have hopes of getting more accurate with more experience.

Sorry for not having a good, factual answer for you, but hopefully the thread that I linked and the associated table will be of use to you.

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

You don't need to have a bulk fermentation at all....some recipes don't call for it. But the longer you bulk ferment, the better the flavor and fluffier the end product.

The guidance you see in recipes merely describes the longest you can bulk ferment without deflating; the dough strength determines how far the dough will expand.

In general, you bulk ferment until it passes the "poke test"; the indentation of a finger poke slowly fills out. However, it's certainly possible to deflate the dough and allow it to bulk ferment again. You can keep doing this until the yeast runs out of food.

albacore's picture
albacore

I talked to a pro baker a few months ago and he said that they autolysed, mixed in the spiral for about 5 minutes and then more or less straight into the bannetons for an overnight retard before baking in the morning.

It seems a bit like cheating, but I have to say the bread tasted pretty good. I'm just wondering if the addition of ascorbic acid facilitates this methodology? Not that I've got any attention of going down this route. I think the bulk ferment must be there for a good reason.

Lance

LevaiNation's picture
LevaiNation

Great info and view points in this thread. I used to just watch the clock and later I learned to feelthe dough. But it’s also beneficial to think about what is going on in there with the yeasts and the feeding and the gas and gluten and how the bulk fermentation and proofing times are all part of the same experience. 

I just turned out a bunch of dough and while cutting it realized it wasn’t fully ready. I think I retarded it too early last night and was hasty in action this morning.... But all this makes me feel like it can continue doing its thing in the preshape/rest and proof chapters. 

Vamos a ver....

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

of 12 loaves that moving on before the first fermentation is done, is a recipe for very flat loaves. The bread tasted good but it really suffered in terms of oven spring and crumb. The loaves felt like bricks. 

Twice now, I have taken dough out to divide it and realized while cutting it that it wasn't ready. I put the dough back into its bucket and let it finish. The loaves were much better.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

I was going to bring up that question...literally word for word.  Trevor has a lot to say about this...he goes as low as 20% but as high as 50% in his book but as I was making a Forkish loaf last night (which called for 3x in volume) I found myself wondering the same thing.

I'm still trying to feel my way through this, but my initial experience is telling me that a longer bulk to further dough structural development, which seems to lead to a shorter proof, is working out better for me.

The only thing that I can figure that might explain the difference is the fact that Forkish doesn't pre-shape and bench rest his bread. I believe part of the thinking behind a younger bulk ferment where it goes 30-50% instead of more is that if the dough is very full of bubbles at 2 or 3x volume, handling it will degas it. That means more regular, less open crumb. So, handling it a big younger makes it less susceptible to losing air. Forkish doesn't handle his dough as much as folks who pre-shape and bench rest and perhaps as a professional, his shaping has a very light touch. Does that account for such a huge difference? Maybe not. But it's the best explanation I've got. 

Right now, I'm compromising with 2x...we'll see how that works for me.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Amy said a longer BF and a shorter proof.

What about this? A shorter BF and a longer (overnight) cold proof. Leslie started me on this idea and it works for me. Probably the results would be even better if the maximum BF and maximum proof was predicted. But I don’t have that skill set yet.

But...

With a short BF and a long (cold) proof, for those seeking extremely open crumb, this seems to make sense. The yeast can only thrive if food is available. There is only a limited amount of time a dough can ferment and proof before it is out of fuel. If the BF is shortened, wouldn’t that allow the proof to be lengthened. And a cold proof would be lengthened even more? If this holds true here comes the good part.

The shortened BF starts the yeast metabolism. Before maximum fermention takes place, the dough is preshaped, rested and then shaped. This dough manipulation will disturb the internal gasses. But now that almost ALL handling has been completed, the yeast is able to actively get to work making open crumb completely undisturbed for it’s remaining life!

When ready to bake, the cold dough is taken out of the refrigerator and immediately turned out of the bannetons unto a peel. Then scored (easier to do when cold) and placed into the preheated oven. The open crumb seems least disturbed to me with this method.

That’s how I often bake and it works for me. I’ve seen phenomenal oven spring by baking cold dough in a hot oven.

But I am wide open to learn techniques that will improve the openness of the bread’s crumb. What do you think?

Dan

“Inquiring minds want to know”

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

We are in complete agreement. I think the shorter BF and longer proof maximizes open crumb. But it is far less fool proof. So, this is a great technique for people who have really perfected the times with their particular flour, starter, etc.

For starters, it's quite difficult to determine a 30% rise, at least in my opinion. It's also much easier to underproof when the bulk goes short.

So, I'm splitting the difference. But I agree with everything you've said.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Let me try to explain my thinking. I think the short BF with the long (over night) cold proof takes less skill than any other way I know. The BF should be long enough to get the yeast feeding and at sometime before they even get close to running out of food you shape and the cold proof. I haven’t found the timing to be that crucial. <maybe I’ve been lucky???> This is the thing that makes it so easy. Once you remove the dough from the frig you go straight into the hot oven. The magic happens in the oven when it springs like wild. When you take the dough out of the frig it doesn’t have to look risen or pass a poke test. Just put it in the oven and watch it grow. This has been my preferred method for sourdough lately. I’m almost ashamed of myself. It feels like I’m cheating :-)

Hopefully Leslie will chime in with her findings. She may have a different experience.

Dan

 

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

baking straight from cold in the sense of oven spring and cold dough is easier to handle.

But for me, it's much harder to judge proof completion from the fridge. Leading up to that, it's hard to try to visually discern the difference from a 20% bulk rise to a 50% bulk rise. We're talking centimeters here, depending on your bulking vessel.

So, I find it to be more guesswork. But we probably don't need to debate what's harder or what's easier. That's understandably different for everyone. We seem to agree on how these differences affect the bread. So, that's what matters.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If you want to give it a try, you could do something like this.

I’m going from memory now. Take Hamelman’s Five Grain Levain. I think he says to bulk ferment around 3 hours IF you use only your starter inoculated pre-ferment. He tells you to do maybe 3 stretch and folds at 30 minute intervals. To test this out you could BF for 2 1/2 - 3 hrs. Then pre-shape, shape in put into a banneton. Then refrigerate on bottom shelf for 12 hours or so. I go overnight, a few hours won’t make a difference. The refrigerator is our friend. Don’t worry about judging whether or not the dough is proofed enough. <Is he crazy?> Slash it cold then put it straight into your preheated oven.

You’ll have to trust me, like I had to trust Leslie. But if you do take the ride, get ready for a big surprise. I know it sounds crazy but it works. btw - if it doesn’t work, blame Leslie!   hehehe

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

"IF you use only your starter inoculated pre-ferment". I am not sure what you mean by that.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Danni, I thought that statement might become a source of confusion. Hamelman gives the baker the option to supplement this particular formula with a little yeast. So, option 1 - if you add the yeast, then BF for 2 hours.  Option 2 - if you choose to forego the yeast (sounds like The Bachelor), then BF for 3 hrs. With 2 or 3 stretch and folds at 30, 60, and 90 minutes. It would have been best to use another recipe because of that, but it is a favorite of mine and I know it by heart.

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

does he use in his recipe? Assuming he is using 100% hydration Levain? I would think that the 3 hours would be dependent on a lot of factors such as dough temp, percentage of prefermented flour, Room temp and type of flour. Does he give out those factors?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Here you go. 

Five-Grain Levain
by Jeffrey Hamelman
Resource --- Bread: A Baker’s Book of Techniques and Recipes   Pages 182 - 183​​
Friday, September 22, 2017

1. Liquid Levain   --- Make the final build 12 to 16 hours before the final mix and let stand in a covered container at about 70°F. Mix Levain and Soaker at the same time. 2. Soaker   --- Pour the boiling water over the grain blend and salt, mix thoroughly, and cover with plastic to prevent evaporation. Make the soaker at the same time as the final build of the levain and let stand at room temperature. If grains that don't require a hot soaker are used (such as rye chops in lieu of the cracked rye listed here), a cold soaker will absorb less water, and therefore it's likely that slightly less water will be needed in the final dough. 3. Mixing   --- Add all ingredients to the mixing bowl. In a spiral mixer, mix on first speed for 3 minutes, adjusting the hydration as necessary. Mix on second speed for 3 to 3 1/2 minutes. The dough should have a moderate gluten development. Desire dough temperature 76°F. 4. Bulk Fermentation   --- 1 to 1 1/2 hours (if yeast (.008%) is used). Otherwise see Step 7 for clarification. 5. Folding   --- If the bulk fermentation will last 1 1/2 hours (if yeast (.008%) is used), fold at 45 minutes. Otherwise see Step 7 for clarification. 6. Dividing and Shaping   --- Divide the dough into 1.5 pound pieces; shape round or oblong. Large loaves of several pounds are also a beautiful sight. And good rolls can be made from this dough. NOTE – I like to make 3 pound boules and place them into the Dutch Ovens and then refrigerate. After they are shaped I place the ball upside down on a water soaked towel and then put the wet side on a towel that is floured and filled with pumpkin seeds. This gives the bread an excellent flavor and also makes it more attractive. 7. Final Fermentation   --- Approximately 1 hour at 76°F. (The dough can be retarded for several hours or overnight, in which case the bulk fermentation should be 2 hours with 1 fold, and the yeast should be left out of the mix). 8. Baking   --- With normal steam, 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes. There is a great deal of water retention in this bread, so be sure to bake it thoroughly.Sorry, I copied the instructions and because of that it seems I’m unable to change the formatting. If you want the formula and/or the properly formatted instructions, I’m happy to provide it also. His Five-Grain Levain is highly thought of on TFL. Dan, aka Danny with a “y”
Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

except for the percentage of prefermented flour he uses. 

I note that he makes his dough in a mixer so he develops the gluten that way. That might account for his getting away with such a short bulk. 

Since i do mine by hand, I don’t think that I can get that level of development unless I spend a significant amount of time killing my arms and hands at the beginning like Trevor.  My arms are not that muscular. ?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I’m really glad I came on this thread because reading and using Calvel, I’ve been puzzled why he uses such a short bulk and long proof for his pain au levain, and other ratios of bulk/final proof of other doughs.

The issue I can’t figure out is how to do this with hand-mix d doughs, especially slack ones.  I’d thought anyway I need the time for organic acids to develop and aid strength.  Typically I inoculate with 20-25% levain, and at 76F take about 6 -7 hours.  

I can’t imagine mixing and bulk ferment for virtually no time and final proof for the balance of the time. How do you develop dough strength without folding a slack, hand/mix dough?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Gadjo, some of the info contained in the links below may appeal to you. The technique, which is only useful with panned breads, uses no BF. All fermentation takes place during the Final Proof.

THIS POST is the main post.

And THIS POST deals with Hamelman’s Five-Grain Levain.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Perfect, thanks very much Dan.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Here is the formula sheet.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ajth386r4ix2ehv/556FB3E2-47

I’m having problems uploading images to the site since the upgrade. Thus the link above.

Yes the recipe calls for a mixer.

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

The prefermented flour is 25% and he uses a very liquid Levain at 125% hydration. So a large portion of his flour is already prefermented so there would already be a large portion of beasties from the start. With that much yeast and bacteria, I would think that  the dough would fill with gas and rise fairly quickly. 

I just wonder how he manages not to overproof in the fridge with that large of an inoculation. I use only 13% prefermented flour and my dough does best between 10-12 hours in the fridge. 

mariana's picture
mariana

Bulk fermentation is done, when the recipe says it's done. I.e. it is bread specific. Each bread recipe is unique in that regard.

In commercial baking, the flavor is the most important criterion. It is done, when it smells right and its total and titratable acidity numbers are there, having reached the target values.

For home bakers, usually other criteria are offered, sometimes - two sets of criteria, time and volume, and you choose one of them. It is done either after it rose to a certain level (doubled, tripled, etc.) or after a certain time at certain temperature has passed. In yeast baking these two criteria usually coincide in time, because commercial yeast is very reliable. In sourdough baking, you choose only one criterion, since sourdough yeasts vary greatly in gassing power from starter to starter, they are unpredictable. So, you either watch your dough rise, as it bulk ferments, or, if you are very sure of your starter being the same as in the recipe, then you watch time and dough temperature and it's done when you timer says so. 

It all depends on specific bread that you are making, on recipe that you are following. Underneath it all is what commercial bakers look at - certain degree of gluten development and strength and definite flavor profile, it is done, when it smells just right and is acidic enough. So, it has nothing to do with volume or even time/temperatures for which by necessity we have values given in ranges that make dough mature up to 2 times quicker or slower, depending on current weather and conditions in your baking room. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Mariana,

 

I’m so glad you posted as I am after a consistently pleasing pain au levain, have read through Calvel, and benefitted greatly from your monumental thread dealing with the same.  Skimming over it again yes, the salient thing that sticks out for me is the reasoning behind such a short BF of 50 minutes, and a longer proof, whereas other breads proceed by different time ratios of bulk- to final-proof.

So at least for me, it’s not so much the nailing down of knowing when a BF is “finished,” but the reasoning behind these differing fermentation curves.  I am unable to see how to manage a slack dough without folds, proofing for so many hours and then baking without much strength development through folding, relatively speaking.

I will say I enjoy lab work - good background in brewing having worked for a regional craft brewery (and on my own), as well as French alpine cheesemaking; in terms of acid curves, the former relying more on pH changes over time and the latter traditionally relying on TA over time.  (I have the equipment to do both; for my simple purposes, very traditional approaches to craft ales in the British tradition and Abondances, reblochons and tommes from raw milk in the Savoie tradition, I don’t get too worked up over TA and really prefer simple pH measurements and going on other more traditional means to manage ferments).**

So yes, while I totally get the needs of commercial bakeries to better nail in consistency, my humble purpose is to come up with a truly stellar pain au levain, and understand Calvel’s reasoning on these different fermentation ratios.  Today’s, FWIW.

 

** Pretty interesting to me was an experiment drawn from a French site somewhere, a mere 1% levain inoculation and 18-22 hour BF or so.  Organoleptically, I could find no benefit but still, it was really interesting to plot the acid curve along the way.

mariana's picture
mariana

Your bake good bread, I like it. Your will definitely succeed in fulfilling your dream.

Try stiff levain and double hydration method as you work with high hydration dough and short bulk, and knead it thoroughly prior to adding the second portion of water.

It doesn't matter that you knead by hand. Kneading is essential if you pursue strength. Then one or two folds during bulk and folding as you preshape and shape would be suffucient. It won't be slack. 

Slack doesn't mean it wasn't folded enough times. It simply means  "not kneaded enough". Or  "too much water was added too soon".

Also, make sure your flour has vitamin C added to it. If your miller doesn't add it, add it yourself.

I would never dare to figure someone else's creative process. How Calvel arrived at his formulas and schedules was his secret. A lot of it had to do with 70years of experience, he intimately understood bread in ways that were irrational, impossible to explain. We have our own sparks of creativity as we sometimes develop our own unique ways of baking bread. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thank you Mariana, that’s tremendously helpful.  None of the flours have Vitamin c enrichment - do you mean ascorbic acid? I’ll give it a try, thanks.

i think by double hydration you’re talking bassinage, right?  If so (basically lifted from Tartine) I add in an additional 50 grams of ice water, which brings me very close to 76, my target temp.

This, despite mixing KA for 15 minutes in 2 loads as 2 kg really challenges my old machine.  Seems so long, but in my experience unless I want to fold every 1/2 hr x 2 hours, then hourly to end of bulk, this lengthy second speed puts me right about there with total of 4 folds during a 6 hour bulk.

Really looking forward to trying your suggestions with a short bulk process.  I will try the stiff levain, ascorbic and as to the rest again, thank you very much.  Might even be interesting to watch pH changes over the bulk (unless obviously I’m going with the short bulk).

Oh, finally, I appreciate and really take in your comments on Calvel, his artisanal choices gained by experience.  I hear you and it’s a keen comment, IMO.

MikeV's picture
MikeV

Gadjo, if you read French, you might find the book "Traité de boulangerie au levain" by Thomas Teffri-Chambelland interesting reading. I haven't read Calvel's classic (yet) so can't compare the two directly, but I found the formers "theory" section to be a quite accessible, while still technical, description of the various processes during levain fermentation and their consequences for the final bread.

Cheers, Mike

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Awesome, thanks Mike!  Spot on and looks great from the accompanying material and reviews.  At the moment a pretty pricey set but in my cart and will keep my eye out.  I see they have another out, on gluten-free production - have you read it?

MikeV's picture
MikeV

Haven't read either that book or his "Pannetone et viennoiserie au levain," but he covers both subjects at quite some length in "Traité." I'm more interested in "classic" French breads so haven't tried those recipes yet, but his recipe for buckwheat bread seemed interesting - his gluten-free recipes all use psyllium as a viscosifier.

Not sure what prices you are seeing, but at least in Europe it sells for around €50, which didn't seem too unreasonable for a high-quality-printed two-volume set.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I'm with you.  Though I enjoy pastry, it's the classic repertoire of French breads I'm interested in.

 

No, not bad at all.  Over here, it's going for $109, which is still reasonable imo, just in the range of the eternal doghouse to the banishment curse of "No.  Not another %$EDY^! cookbook costing $#%R6%342@*! ringing in my ears.