SD bread vs molds - what's been your experience?
Still a relatively new SD baker here that's starting to hit his stride w/semi-regular bakes combining Dab's NMNF starter, Tartine's Country bread recipe using a combination of KABF and my own home-milled wheat. My normal bakes are for three 1100g Boules in 10" DO's.
I'll typically cut my Boules in quarters and freeze, thawing out a single quarter at a time which, for me, is about 3 days worth, maybe 4. More often than not by the 4th day it's stale to the point where I just throw it onto my compost pile. No complaints here - it's a natural product w/o preservatives, and anyway I get to recycle what goes stale in to my garden.
But about a fifth of the time I'll spot a green mold on my bread, usually in the interior when I take a slice, but sometimes on the exposed surface. Naturally this tends to happen at 3 or more days after thawing rather than earlier. I see this as an improvement area if there's something I can do about it - ideally it'll mold after it goes stale, by which time I already would've donated it to the compost pile.
What is your experience with molds and SD bread? Do you run in to it as often as I do, and are there any effective measures to push out the onset of molding? If not, what might I be doing wrong, or what are you doing that keeps the molds away?
Also does bread shape or volume have anything to do with it? A part of me wonders if large Boules are more susceptible, as I'd imagine more moisture might be available in the interior to allow the molds to develop. Also I would've thought that a more sour SD would tend to postpone molding. (Since I like my SD breads sour, I refresh my NMNF starter every 12 weeks.) Am I wrong in assuming this?
One additional thought - I add vital wheat gluten in direct proportion to the WWF I use in my dough - does VWF, as I suspect, cause the resulting crumb to be moister than without it and thereby a factor that contributes to the molding?
Would appreciate all thoughts and advice on this matter, and as always, with many thanks in advance!
The only help I can give is that I make fairly small loaves of SD with 100% home milled whole wheat. I find that if I let it completely cool, then wrap in plastic, I can let it sit on the counter for up to a week before it molds. Usually I get a white mold, not green.
Wow, never would've considered wrapping in plastic. Wouldn't that cause the crust to go soft? Would've also thought that might actually be conducive to mold via trapped moisture, unless you're talking about the crinkly cello-bags with the micro-perforations. Interesting to hear that that may actually keep molds at bay.
Perhaps I'm missing something.
My experience has shown that the more acidic the dough (sourdough) the longer the shelf life. There are other factors that come into play too.
Those of us that like that tough, crackly crust tend to keep our bread in a paper bag since plastic bags or containers retain moisture. Leaving any food exposed to air will only promote bacterial and fungal growth since whatever blows by can find an attractive new growth medium.
Personally I accept the trade-off. If I want that crisp, tough crust I know I have about 3 days to make my move. With that said I now bake a sourdough pan loaf that I turn into sliced bread using an automated bread slicer, and package in plastic bags. This morning I had two slices of toast from a loaf that was baked 8 days ago and there was no sign of any odd growth. I finally took the last few slices, ran them through the food processor, and turned them into breadcrumbs which are drying as I write this.
So, my experience shows that a simple flour, water, salt and levain dough that is pushed into an acidic state through cold fermentation, baked and the sealed in a plastic bag for storage, can last up to 8 days without showing signs of mold. As a side note, the plastic bag was opened daily for each of those 8 days and immediately sealed again with a twist tie, after evacuating as much air as possible.
Opening the bag and leaving it open on the counter top for an hour or so is just asking for trouble :-)
Jim
Yes, that's what I like and why I bake my own SD, is for the love of the hard, crackly crust!
So sounds like 3 days until molds appear is not unexpected, though in my case the molds, more often than not, appear on the inside! That's what has me so puzzled - the molds seem to start from the interior of my breads, which is what led me to believe that they prefer the moist conditions in the interior of the loaf over the cut surfaces where its drier.
But now you're also using plastic bags. Do you use the micro-perforated bags? I'm both intrigued but also surprised that the plastic would keep molds at bay.
One thing I forgot to mention - I keep my bread out on the counter in a tightly woven lidded bamboo basket, with the bread inside wrapped in a paper towel. Perhaps this still allows for too much airflow? I didn't think so since it's tightly woven, but maybe I'll try replacing the paper towel with a paper bag.
I bake small 500g batards of SD with 10% rye flour. I bake two at a time and these usually are eaten within five days but I have occasionally gone nine days without a trace of mold. I don't take any special precautions and after they are fully cool they go in a plastic bag with a clamp. I only slice a loaf that will be eaten so the second one stays intact until the first is devoured.
Yeasted breads on the other hand can develop mold during the warm summers here in the Washington DC area after five days when the weather is warm. those are baked in tins (700g) and one of them is double wrapped in Saran, put in a sealed plastic bag, and frozen until needed.
Wow, 3 out of 3 using plastic bags! I'll ask again here too, by chance are you referring to the micro-perforated and crinkly plastic bags, or something more akin to the ZipLoc bags?
...and any way to postpone molds while still keeping the hard, crackly crust that I love so much?
Doing so makes it easy enough to take out only as much as you want at that time.
That sounds like a winner, though a part of me doesn't want to give up on the pleasures of hand-slicing the bread just before use. Likely holding on to too many romantic notions of bread and rustic bread baking, but it's mostly what draws me to the hobby!
Of course the other possibility is to divide my Boules into smaller portions before freezing, though the quartering of the Boules that I'm doing now before freezing seems ideal with regards to its resulting shape.
If 1/4 of an 1100 gm loaf lasts 3-4 days, then 1/4 of a ~800 gm loaf should be gone by day 3. All else being equal, the smaller loaf won't be as high, but not necessarily by as much as you might initially think. Depending on the your recipes, shaping et al, it may be possible to bake loaves that have smaller diameters than your DOs.
Another thought is to make batards, which can be done using round DOs. When cut in half, they can be stored cut side down, without any cut surface exposed to the air.
Fwiw, I cut both my boules and batards in half and freeze one piece. I keep the half that's out, whether originally or after defrosting, cut side down on a plate in a old-fashioned bread box. The loaves are scaled so that each half is gone no more than 3 days.
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I actually use the clear plastic bags that they have at the supermarket ( US ) to hold fresh fruit. I don't tie it closed, but I do twist the bag a few times. I think you have a tradeoff - crisp crust - it will last for a few days, plastic bag, and it stays fresher longer, but you lose the crispness of the crust.
So it's bearing down on me that it'll be a Sophie's choice between keeping a crisp crust vs keeping the bugs at bay. Right now I'm thinking of succumbing to the bugs and just hope that they'll be nice to me!
I will put my SD in the toaster oven for a minute or two. The crust gets nice and crunchy and the middle stays soft.
There is yet one permanent solution for mold control - bake more often! Since I am a small commercial home baker I bake 3 times a week so I never have a shortage of baking opportunities.
My local supermarket carries what are labeled "bread bags". They are simply a very low-cost Zip-loc type bag without any closing mechanism. They are maybe a couple of inches longer than a standard "large" bag and they seem to fit better than anything else I have tried. I use these myself and most often package my pan loaves in them as well. My rustic loaves and baguettes go out in paper bread bags that I purchase on the web.
I really like your bamboo/linen solution for storage but I doubt the combination provides much protection from mold. We're talking microns here and they are blowing around our kitchen environments constantly, just looking for a place to call home. Without an effective barrier the mold will take over sooner or later.
I have though about trying oxygen depletion pouches, the same that are used for long-term food storage, but they will only assist with aerobic organisms. Anaerobic organisms will still thrive.
Honestly, save your sanity and bake twice a week. Make too much bread and keep your neighbors happy :-)
Good point on the size of these buggers... And since I do a lot of different ferments at home, I'm sure my kitchen has a pretty healthy population of these micro-beasties.
I hear you on the "bake often" approach and glad it works for you. Sounds like you have a nice combo-hobby/business going on there! I might approach that as I'm already baking for friends (just as gifts), but even then with my Boules being 1100 g (partly based upon the size of my DO) I end-up quartering and freezing the ones I keep for myself, leaving only a quarter Boule out at any time.
Interesting on the bread bags - do you have a brand name for them? I don't ever recall seeing them, not that I ever looked...
I go through various stages of store/mold cycling. Winter time (I live in a moderate temp climate--hot summers, cold winters but not frozen tundra, generally humid summers...kitchen gets to be 80 quite easily during summer and probably no more than 68 winter unless cooking)
I store my yeast and SD breads in King Arthur bread bags or Ziploc style freezer bags. I don't find it makes a difference. Whether I wrap in saran or not doesn't make a difference. I get moldy sourdough any time after 3-5 days in summer and sometimes winter. Usually a white mold but sometimes a grey or brown mold. Winter generally can get a week or so out of my homebaked breads.
My yeast dough is almost always green and really smelly. My challahs get moldy the most but any bread is fair game to my friendly fungus. I don't have microperforated bags and don't like leaving breads out lest they get stale.
I use ziplock bags with no perforations. I cool my bread completely which takes several hours and then into the plastic bag they go. My bread goes easily 8 days with no mold. I also make smaller boules of around 600-700g baked.
I use the plastic bread and food storage bags with the twist tie. I am in the Sacramento area- so, hot summers, but usually fairly dry heat, mild winters.
I bake usually weekly. On occasion, my bread will mold, usually in the summer. I have taken to storing my brad in the fridge in the plastic bag ( I know, I know, I hear the gasps and the eye rolling and all that) which alleviates this. I am not usually able to bake more than once a week due to my schedule.
Well it appears nearly unanimous that plastic bags are the way to go, though there was also a mention of paper bags and even an old-school bread box. With so many TFL'ers advocating plastic bags I'll definitely give it a try, though will likely miss the texture of the crust that's a large part of the enjoyment of doing rustic breads.
Might also try a spin on pre-slicing before freezing. I always quarter my Boules for freezing, but can further pre-slice these quarters in to 2 slice thick portions before freezing as a compromise.
...and a wild thought, or perhaps not so much - I normally make Tartines with my bread (open-faced sandwiches), toasting each slice before topping them. Just wondering, how easily can one slice a frozen SD Boule straight form the freezer, and how well would the subsequent frozen slice toast? Will have to try that as well!
is not easy but I have done it. A very sharp butcher knife works much better than a bread knife and you cut straight down like chopping a carrot or apple rather than sawing back and forth like you do with a bread knife.
Oh and frozen bread toasts up just fine!
Nothing to do with mold, but interesting none the less
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/06/does-refrigeration-really-ruin-bread.html