leaven not sour but dough does
Hi
I hope someone can help me. I have previuosly checked hundreds of opinions but instead of helped me they confused me more instead as there are very different points of view about...
My starter is 100% hydratation with organic white flour. It works fine, I feed it twice a day. 8/10 hours before baking I give it last refreshment do the leaven ( 20% ) and in the morning is ready and smells sweet, not sour at all. I do autolyse for 1 hour, add leaven and salt and do S & F every 30minutes for 2 hours and every 60 minutes for 2 more hours. then I put it in the fridge for 12 to 18 hours. I leave it to room temperature for 1 hour, then 2 hours for proofing and ready to bake. The bread is too sour so I guess it got sour from the bulk fermentation.
I have heard many reasons to that. Some people say because the long cold fridge fermentation...then why I see many recipes talking about doing long fermentations of 24hours or more in the fridge..?.
Missing info: room and water temperature from 66º to 71º.
I really hope someone can help as Im nearly going to leave sourdough method and continue with yeast one.
Thank you very much
leaving out the refrigerator part of the process , and see what happens .
Some folk like sour bread , some don't , some folk refrigerate their dough , some don't . There may be a correlation there somewhere .
Baking bread is ancient , refrigerating dough is modern , lol
... opinion, because "sour" is a personal perception, and the amount of "sour" that a person enjoys is an individual preference and not something that can be measured. Recipes that include very long fermentation at low temperatures to allow the increased development of acids (and more sour flavour) are recommended for people like me who really enjoy the "sour" (and always look for ways to get more of it). Obviously, such recipes would be ones that you would want to avoid since you don't enjoy the "sour".
One key difference between sourdough leavened bread and commercial yeast leavened bread is that the sourdough starter adds in the natural lactobacillus bacteria to the dough, and the lactic and acetic acids that this bacteria produces by fermenting the carbohydrates in the grains. These acids are what produce the "sour" flavour, so that flavour will not be found in commercial yeast leavened breads that don't introduce those bacteria that have been built up in the development of the sourdough starter.
As PatMax mentioned, one of the ways of minimizing the sour flavour is to minimize the length of fermentation time. If you delete the long refrigerated ferment, then you will have lessened the amount of time that the bacteria have to develop the acids.
Some other things that you might want to try would be starting the levain build with a very minimal amount of starter and doing a single stage build to a much larger levain to minimize the amount of built-up bacteria that will be present in the levain; using a "younger" levain instead of waiting for it to mature (that is, using it right as it hits 75% or 100% of doubling after the last feed, instead of letting it sit for a number of hours after it has peaked); starting with new flour, since older flour can start to go rancid and cause more of a sour flavour; and not using whole grain hard red wheat flour since it can have a bitter flavour to the bran and germ (use all purpose or bread flour instead).
Really, it all comes down to what bread you really enjoy making and eating. If it isn't enjoyable for you to try experimenting with suggestions like this, and you know that you do enjoy making and eating commercial yeast leavened bread, then say good-bye to the starter and start making bread that you enjoy! There is no reason at all to continue making something that you don't like, and you already know that you like some yeast leavened breads, so base your decision on what makes your life, and your baking, more enjoyable to YOU...
Cheers!
Thank you very much both for taking the time to replay. very apreciatted.
Personal tastes are like colours, Some like it sour and some not. Definetely there are also sordough breads which are not sour like most french bakers do or for example here I know a third generation bakers which only do sourdough breads and I have tasted their breads and no sign at all of sour in their breads. They are really obsessed bakers ( they plan their holidays on somewhere to visit bakers around the world ! ), and they do 24hrs cold fermentation...but they do not share their knowledgment...
Trying to explain sour level in words is quite difficult, I would say I like sour no more pronounced than flavor. Taking into account that there are many factors into it, there are a lot tests to do ( last will be throw the dough by the window ha ha..)
Anyway I will keep trying it.
normally produce lactic acid - the base sour of the bread that is mild. LAB can also be pushed to make acetic acid the 'Tang' part of the sour that is bolder and harsher. A levain that is liquid 100% hydration at room temperature will produce mild lactic acid but, reducing the hydration say to 70 - 72%, like bread dough and reducing the temperature, like when dough is retarded in the fridge, promotes the LAB to make acetic acid instead of lactic acid. The acetic sour tang is probably what you don't like . In fact, most people do not like really sour bread so you are not at all unusual and why most SD bread in the SF style is high hydration and not retarded
So, to make the bread without the tangy scetic acid sour part, keep the hydration as high as you can handle for the dough and do not retard it - keep it at room temperature. Sour is all in the science!
Happy baking
time you recipe so your overnight is 8-10 hours. rise once. then shape into final loaves prior to placing in fridge. In the morning go directly from fridge to hot oven/stone.you do not need to let the dough warm for several hours, steam as usual. the bread wi rise nice nicely. this has worked many times for me. dough from fridge at 48 degrees vs several hours until room temp 72 degrees isnt much of a difference when baking in a 400 degree oven. My rise seems better too as the dough can get slack if left out too long...
Let me see if I understand:
1 - Autolyse for 1 hour.
2 - Add leaven + salt, do S & F each 30 minutes for 2 hours + S & F each 60 minutes for 2 more hours.
3 - Final Shape & place in fridge.
4 - Straight from the fridge to the oven
Is that what you mean ?
this comment from Lechem that links to a good article on a method of adjusting the sourness: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/372293#comment-372293