what am I doing wrong? naturally leavened, high hydration bread baking.
Hi.
I've had about 3 tries with making naturally leavened bread with a high hydration dough. The results tastewise have been very good, but the shape of the loaf, not so much. I usually end up with a very flat loaf. No oven spring and a very "runny" consistency after the final rise where there is no real rising going on it seems. I've followed the tartine bread recipe the first time, the second and third time I've had to prolong some of the process in the fridge because of my schedule. Because of my inexperience with baking this kind of bread I find it very hard troubleshooting and I'm hoping for some help here? Why is my dough not rising? Why is it runny after the rise? Why am I not getting any oven spring? but the most important why is it not working? :) Thank you in advance for any help.
The latest recipe i used went something like this:
- 350 g of wheat flour - organic
- 100 g of ølands wheat - stonemilled organic (do not know the english name, I think it has similiar qualities to spelt)
- 50 g of graham flour - organic
- 100 g of leaven (100% hydration, 50/50 wheat/graham)
- 350 g water
- 2% salt
the procedure was approximately as follows:
- feed starter twice a day for 2 days on the counter
- mix leaven and let it sit for 8 hours on the counter
- mix the above ingredients except for salt and 50g water
- autolyse 30 mins
- mix in salt and water, rest 10 mins.
- slap and fold x2 with 10 mins rest in between
- stretch and fold x2 with 10 mins rest in between
- bulk fermentation for ~22-24 hours in the fridge ~5C
- shape and bench rest for 30 mins
- final shaping and rising for 20 hours in the fridge
- rising on the counter ~22C for ~5 hours ( it hadn't really risen in the fridge.
- bake for 25 minutes in preheated dutch oven 250C and 20 minutes lid of 250C
notes:
- my starter passed the float test.
- I've tried following the recipe from the book to the letter with 4 hours bulk ferment and 4 hours rise with the same result. (tartine bread)
- I have a relatively young starer (startet december 23)
- My first 2 tries was with 100% stonemilled ølands wheat with 16,5g protein pr. 100g (the above is only around 13g pr. 100 g)
- My handling of the high hydration dough is probably not perfect, but improving every time, as I've only had a few tries.
- here are a couple of photos of the results from the above recipe:
after removing the lid:
after the bake:
At first glance, I would say that both the bulk fermentation and the final proof are far too long for that high a percentage of active starter to flour (200 grams of starter to 500 grams of flour is 40% starter; very high). Your fridge is 5C, which allows fermentation to continue to some extent. I would suggest you try a ratio of 1-2-3 (100 grams of starter, 200 grams of water and 300 grams of flour, mostly bread flour, plus 6 grams of salt) to get you more comfortable with naturally leavened bread. At 71%, this is still a fairly high hydration dough but much more manageable.
Second, retard either the bulk ferment or the final proof in the fridge, not both. I'd suggest the bulk ferment be retarded (after first letting the dough rise at room temperature for around four hours), because the dough is a bit more forgiving if you've over-fermented; not so much if you've overdone the final proof. After you shape it, let it proof at room temperature for a couple of hours, watching it all the time. Bake it when it passes the poke test (poke a floured knuckle or finger into the dough and see if the dent springs back. It should spring back slowly and partially).
Finally, in your steps 5 and 6, make sure you are working the dough enough to get it strong, stretchy and elastic. If you're doing that by hand it might take ten, fifteen or even twenty minutes to get to this stage.
Hope this all helps!
Just looked up ølands wheat and it is somewhat similar to spelt. Spelt can't handle as high hydration as modern wheat and it ferments faster too. The other flours could also be weak gluten. This could explain the lack of rise and dough being far too hydrated.
Bring the hydration down (65%?) and watch that Fermentation.
I completely agree with Lazy Loafer's recommendations. Seeing your crumb might add a bit more evidence. I predict you had surprisingly big holes.
Two other considerations: First, the loaf is a bit small for the size of the Dutch oven. I would scale up to a 1kg loaf. Second, you didn't say what kind of container you are using for proofing. Especially with a wet dough, you want to proof your loaf with good lateral support to prevent excessive spreading.
David
> First, the loaf is a bit small for the size of the Dutch oven.
That looks like the Lodge combo cooker, which is (IME) just right for a loaf with 500g of flour.
David
Sorry I miss typed. I used 100 g of starter not 200
The crumb looked like this after the above. If that gives any ideas of my mistakes?
pictures for some reason
or not enough. Rx: work on starter for a while to increase the yeast population density.
I definitely agree that starter is the first thing I would rectify given this situation. But, although the hole structure looks just like an under proofed loaf, the crumb doesn't appear gummy in any way and the crust doesn't look quite like an under proofed dough. Is this loaf a sign of a reasonably fermented dough with yeast that just isn't strong enough yet? All of the signs are not falling into place for me.
To the OP: strengthen your starter and try again. You will probably not have any issue.
But the depth and colour of the crust tells me it was not over-proofed.
More info needed on the flavour... How strong was the sour flavour coming thru? If there is a lot of sour flavour and tang, then the starter could very well be lopsided with too much bacteria being produced and not enough yeast. Long fermenting times would indicate this. Was the bread salty enough? 11g is 2%
Step #7 seems abrupt... all the folding done before the dough is rising... Sourdoughs tend to need folds while it is rising and then we come around to... why was the dough not rising before or during chilling? Perhaps a few folds while the dough was warming and waiting out 5 hrs of bench time. Here again I would have my nose to the dough checking the fermentation aromas. If the dough wasn't rising, why? The bottom of the loaf looks like the dough surface (before inverting) was breaking into strings. This also makes me think the bacteria is too dominant in the dough or dough can't take long retardation.
I would back up to the starter, getting it nailed down to a routine and temp control. First review the actual details of maintenance: type, feeding ratios, temps, peak times, along with some history, texture, taste and aromas. If anything stands out, save some of the starter for back up while tweaking the remaining starter in several different directions.
This sounds reasonable. Definitely not over proofed. Looks under proofed but not in the normal way. Out of balance starter makes a lot of sense. I think what we are looking at here is the starter passing the float test: it ought to be really frothy and bubbly and active for the best chance of success. Chad uses his young leaven but I really need to see his bakery and see those variables in action, because I have never had success with what I would deem a young leaven.
direct links to pictures:
https://s24.postimg.org/gyzb5cq9h/20170112_200009.jpg
https://s24.postimg.org/se6kkn8mt/20170112_203314.jpg
https://s24.postimg.org/mawkw6ex1/20170112_203329.jpg
https://s28.postimg.org/o5arigo1p/20170114_102002.jpg
https://s30.postimg.org/fb7euzmht/20170114_101459.jpg
When you reach step 9—pull the bulk-fermented dough out of the refrigerator and shape it—what is the consistency of the dough? I've found that at that point my dough is sticky, starting to develop elasticity, but it's still a heavy wet glob that won't hold its shape.
I can build some tension during the pre-shaping process and get it into an ellipsoid shape, but at soon as I let go of it, it slumps back down into a fat pancake. The Tartine Bread book says that pre-shaping should yield a taut, smooth skin on the outside, but mine isn't nearly dry enough to get there.
This comes after a stretch-and-fold every half hour for four hours, then, finding the dough still completely unmanageable, refrigerating it for eight hours. Perhaps it's really going wrong at the beginning with the levain.
I've baked from Tartine 3 and FWSY, and had some of the same problems. Now I'm experimenting with some of the techniques for traditional European breads that Daniel Leader documents in his book "Local Breads". One of the main differences is the length of time some of these doughs are mixed, to ensure the gluten is well-developed. I've made two kinds lately - a %50 whole wheat Genzano bread and some white ciabatta rolls. Both were mixed in a stand mixer at high speed (yes, you read that right) for 15 to 18 minutes! The doughs were high hydration and very, very soft. But what made the difference was the strength of the dough. I got that smooth skin when shaping, and the soft but springy feel to the dough. Both are also made with a relatively young levain, though both also have added active dry yeast. I think I'm beginning to be a convert to vigorous mixing! Here is a link to my blog post (with pictures) about the Genzano bread.