The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Still bad loaves

KayDee's picture
KayDee

Still bad loaves

Getting pretty discouraged.

Used 1 2 3 method, again, Dough was nice. Bulk ferment went well. Shape and final rise went well.  Starter, bubbly and very active. Both rises saw excellent rise in dough. Although, dough remains "puddly" and very sticky. So sticky that it actually annoys the heck out of me to work with it. 

Baked 1st loaf in preheated covered DO at 500 degrees, for 20 then dropped temp. Used instant read thermometer. Interior 209 degrees. Removed lid to allow for extra browning.  

Second loaf baked in preheated covered DO at 425 degrees. Followed above.

Both were heavy, gummy and dense. Both in garbage. 

Getting pretty discouraged. Keep trying different tweaks and keep ending up with same, dense, inedible bread. 

Clearly not correcting for the right problem. Never had this much trouble with yeast, but really need to perfect sourdough. 

Any suggestions for corrections are gratefully received. 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Keep the 1:2:3 as your template but drop the hydration to 65%.

So start off with your 1:2:3 then make adjustments.

 

150g starter @ 100% hydration

300g water

450g bread flour

 

Now if your starter is 100% hydration then the dough will always end up 71% hydration in a 123 recipe.

Total flour = 525g

Total water = 375g

 

So for your dough to be 65% hydration you'd need 341g water of which 75g is in your starter. So 341 - 75 = 266g water.

Now re-arrange your recipe to look like this...

 

150g starter @ 100% hydration

266g warm water

450g bread flour

+ 9g salt

 

Make sure your starter is fully mature.

Incorporate an autolyse of just the 450g flour + 266g water for 1 hour.

Add the starter and salt and with a wet hand squeeze and fold the dough till fully incorporated.

Bulk Ferment giving the dough a stretch and fold every 20 - 30 minutes. Be careful not to deflate it when doing so. I favour keeping the dough inside the bowl and taking a portion of dough from the side, gently pulling up and over (careful to not go beyond the doughs resistance) and into the middle, going round the dough till is resists.

Now at 33% starter it should only need a few hours bulk ferment. Once the dough feels aerated, is billowy and has extensibility then it is done. At a rough guess 3-4 hours depending but watch the dough and not the clock.

Give the dough a pre-shape which can be done by doing a final stretch and fold then gently easing it out of the bowl and onto prepared bench (no flour needed at this stage just wet your hands so it doesn't stick and use the dry bench to help tighten the boule a tad but not too much).

Bench rest for 20-30 minutes then shape again into prepared banneton.

You can either final proof till ready (just under doubled) or refrigerate for 8-12 hours.

 

Watch videos from this site http://www.breadwerx.com/ for ideas on how to handle the dough and what to look out for when it's ready.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

.. it never ceases to impress upon me how generous everyone is on this board with their time and wisdom..

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

I would never have kept at it this long if I did not have the help, guidance and advice of the incredible people here. True artisans who are so willing to share their expertise are gifts! 

KayDee's picture
KayDee

With the exception of the hydration, that's nearly exactly what I did do. I have a very healthy, good starter. 

I am careful with S&F, and I keep it in the original bowl, moving it to a parchment lined rising basket (or bowl, depending upon how much dough I have). I use parchment so I can easily lift it from the rising vessel into the preheated DO.

I will give your advice a try! I do like the lower hydration idea. The puddly dough drives me mad. 

Thank you for taking the time to help!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It's so rewarding when it works. Try it again, make adjustments for the amount you need, here is a calculator http://bakerybits.co.uk/dough-calculator-bakerybits

You can toggle by ingredients & grams or %'s. Put the example I gave you into the recipe box and then above click how much you wish the dough to weigh then on the right hand side your new recipe will appear.

If it doesn't go well again then private message me and i'll send you another recipe. 71% hydration is quite high for an all bread flour dough especially if using weaker flour which can't handle high hydration.

Ru007's picture
Ru007

become puddly and sticky? Is it puddly and sticky from the beginning? 

Don't be discouraged, it'll come right soon :)

aroma's picture
aroma

Are you using strong bread flour?

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Lechem, thank you so very much for your help. I'll check out the site.
Ru007, It becomes puddly and sticky after proofing a bit. I autolyse water and flour, then after a bit (this time 60 min or so) add the levain. I pre-fermented this on the counter (enclosed pantry) and followed the progress of the dough. When it looked about "done," I shaped and put it in the refrigerator overnight.

Aroma, I used about 10% WW, and 90% artisinal bread flour (follows the proportions of my starter). 

I really, really, REALLLLLY want this to work! 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

Is it possible you've over-proofing, which can produce loose, sticky dough? I've known a few people who eyeballed what they thought was doubling but was actually far more than double. 

KayDee's picture
KayDee

It has risen. Has a few big bubbles on the surface, and survives the "poke" test. However, it could be overproofed. It's warm here and it sometimes proofs quickly. 

phaz's picture
phaz

Don't give up! When I first got into this a few years ago, there was a bit of experimentation ie. bird food loaves. And that's my suggestion, instead of garbage can, toss them out the back door. I found the birds and little critters really liked my experiments! 

Since I haven't done a sourdough in a while, and my starter is just coming up now, I'm sure I'll be feeding those critters again soon. Winter in Vermont, so I'm sure there's a few hungry birdies around - they need to eat to.

Anyway, keep going, and keep posting. I always found great help here on tfl, you'll get it!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Post the whole process here so we can see what is going on with dough

KayDee's picture
KayDee

Post the whole process? Not sure what you mean?

nmygarden's picture
nmygarden

as much as you want, as much as you can. The more information available, the quicker it can be identified.

Keep going. We're with you and know you can do this!

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

It sounds like maybe the gluten isn't fully developed in the dough to start with. For how long (and using what method) do you mix and develop the dough? When you say dough was 'nice', does that mean it was strong and stretchy, and formed a nice round ball with a smooth skin? If not, perhaps it needs either more working (machine mixing, slap and fold, whatever the method) before the bulk ferment, or let it sit in the fridge overnight after the stretch & fold phase, after it shows signs of increasing in size. A cold retarded bulk ferment can also provide better gluten development. Shape it cold and let it proof for an hour or two (watch it closely), then bake.

As a last resort, try a different flour (or a new bag) and bottled spring water. I've had problems a couple of times with a bag of flour where the dough did not seem as strong (and was sticky). I always use the same brand; it's just the particular bag sometimes is maybe old or?

KayDee's picture
KayDee

Usually I use a KA, but this time I did not. There was too much dough, so I mixed by hand and did S&F. Usually, I do 4 or more 30 min apart, but this time I only did three. 

Keep in mind too, that I've yet to have a decent loaf of bread and I've been at this for weeks. 

With regard to giving it to the birds, we live in a housing development with pretty rigid HOA rules. "Feeding the wildlife" is illegal. 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

You might want to describe to us what you mean by a decent loaf of bread. There are tons of breads out there with different characteristics and they are all "decent " loaves of bread. Do you want light and fluffy, or custardy and chewy, or dense and substantial? 

My loaves when I put add-ins feel like bricks but the crumb is open, custardy and somewhat substantial when I cut slices. That's the type of bread I usually like and strive for. 

Whst are you looking for?

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Ah, gotcha'. I like a crispy crust with chew (not crackle and break) and a loose crumb, with some holes... I don't mind dense if it's not gummy.

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

A single picture of the crumb and the loaf can be very helpful. The process is a little involved but if I can learn it, it is do-able.

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

I see. Well, I'll remember that for next time! As soon as these were cooled enough to cut, I broke them open and tossed them in the trash. Gummy, damp interior with close, dense crumb. Big air pocket on the top (that collapsed upon touching).  

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

before cutting into them (these are Sourdough right?). That might solve your gummy interior since bread needs time to redistribute the moisture throughout the loaf when it cools. My bread would be totally gummy if I cut it at all when it is still warm.

The dense crumb might just be a shaping or proofing issue or then again, just cutting the loaf too soon. You end up crushing the bread and the knife gets gummy from the moisture in the bread.

If it is shaping, try the letter fold method. I have gotten better results using that method and be sure to give the dough a good pull and firm pat to slightly degas it and get the extra large bubbles out before the final proofing.  

As to proofing, you need to show us a picture of the loaf right after you shape it and one after it is proofed just before it goes into the oven. Then we can have an idea if it is under or over proofed. 

KayDee's picture
KayDee

I didn't cut it warm. It's always completely cooled before I cut it. I do the stretch and fold, as explained in my first post. I believe it should have gone on longer, given my dismal results. 

Will do with the photos next time. I usually bake over the weekends, but probably won't do so this weekend. Have too much to do for the holiday. 

Thanks for your help!

 

joc1954's picture
joc1954

Fisrt of all, don't give up!!!!

With 1 2 3 recipe you end up with relatively low hydration. So it should not stick and be wet unless you over ferment it or over proof it. I would skip autolyse in your case and mix in the levain from the beginning. Then when you see that your dough becomes aerated and it domes at the walls of the vessel you should divide it , preshape and shape it. In your case I would not retard it but continue and proof it and bake it. You can use finger poke test to see when it's ready to go into the oven. If the dough starts looking wet when you are proofing it or starts tearing already during the shaping or when you are proofing it means that it is over fermented and over proofed and the gluten networks starts falling apart so you will get quite a dense loaf quite flat with almost no oven spring.

Happy baking KayDee!

Joze

 

KayDee's picture
KayDee

Thank you!!